Gib want to play their qualifying games at CC

[blingo]

The ref has to be bent......TWO pens against us ahahahahahahahaha

[MJG]

4-1 to Scotland 39 minutes.
Going back to my comments earlier,  is this really any good for them?  I still believe have the bottom five or six teams in their own group would be of more use.

[blingo]

lighten up MJ, we are out there full of pride and giving it a go. What exactly is wrong with that?

[MJG]

lighten up MJ, we are out there full of pride and giving it a go. What exactly is wrong with that?

???  Just following up comments made earlier in the thread.

[Burt]

At least Gib got a goal!

[Woolly Mammoth]

At least Gib got a goal!

Yes that goal got the biggest cheer.

[blingo]

Thing is that a lot of kids in Gib are now aspiring to be selected for their country. It has given football a big boost over here and we are currently looking at building a cat 4 stadium. If that doesn't justify playing in these championships, I don't understand what does. You can not base competitions like the Europeans or W/C on only the top teams should play top teams, that happens as the group stages are over and the cream rises to the top.

[Arthur]

Its surely arrogance though MJG for us as a much bigger nation to refuse these smaller nations the opportunity to play an England or a France. It might be a waste of time for us but it isnt for them and equality should come before inferiority.

You wouldnt stop Dartford playing United in the Fa Cup

As for it being a waste of time, we need to stop have meaningless friendlies against Italy etc before we have any right to belittle anyone.

I don't have a particular view on whether Gibraltar et al should be allowed to participate in the group stages, but I do disagree with your assertion that MJG's suggestion is borne of arrogance.

Indeed, unwittingly, your analogy - no one would stop Dartford from playing Manchester United - actually supports MJG's argument more than it does yours.

Before a club such as Dartford can play against the likes of Manchester United, it will have to have played and won a number of matches in the qualifying rounds, as well as coming through at least the first two rounds of the F.A.Cup. The reason, therefore, that no one would object to Dartford having their day in the limelight is that it can be clearly seen that they have earned that opportunity.

And isn't this what MJG is suggesting: that the weakest footballing nations should first compete against each other for the chance to play against the strongest footballing nations?

Whilst no one would begrudge Dartford a shot at the big boys in the Cup, I'm sure there would be many more dissenting voices were they allowed to be part of the Premier League - to be thrashed by six-or-seven-goals-or-more most games. (And this is putting to one side the fact that, for this to happen, they would have to unfairly leap-frog other teams.)

To say that '...equality should come before inferiority' may make a good soundbite, but equality doesn't always equate to that which is deemed fair - and 'fairness' is also a quality worth embracing, is it not? (It is for this reason, at least partly, that the group stages of the two major international tournaments are seeded and, as such, are not entirely equal.)

To 'belittle' is to make a person or, in this case, a nation of people seem as if it is not important. Had MJG been stating that Gibraltar should not be allowed to take any part in competitive international football, I would say that your choice of verb was appropriate; that, however, he is merely offering the view that they should first defeat opponents of a similar calibre before moving onto a bigger stage, whether you agree with it or not, does not, in my opinion, amount to 'belittling'.

[Rudolph]

I wonder if the Gib keeper is originally from Liverpool.

[dannyboi-ffc]

Arthur are you a lawyer by any chance? I remember you doing a similar post about referees.

My post wasn't a direct hit at MJG and i'm sure he knows that. It was a general comment about the attitude of football in bigger countries. I wont lose sleep over it if Gib are told they have to qualify for a qualifier but so what if they are rubbish? Just say they never ever get good enough to qualify against the league of minnows playing in front of hundreds each time rather than thousands and with no tv money. Not only do they never get to play bigger nations but they also are deprived of the huge revenue they would receive from 1 match at Wembley. 1 match at Wembley accounts to I'd imagine several qualifying campaigns against amateurs. How do they improve without that money?

We are talking about a nation nearly 150 years behind English football. They will never ever ever ever catch us up and telling them they arent good enough to begin with isnt going to help. Maybe arrogance is too strong a word but I still dont see the benefit to them, it just benefits us because our attitude is "phew, that saves a waste of a journey and a waste of a fixture allocation". Why is that the right mentality as we are about to play a second string team at a crucial time of the season in a friendly.

Fact is we can pretend we are trying to help them by pushing them aside but all we would do is replace that time with a friendly against Brazil. Money money money for us and san marino and a loaf of bread for them.

Also if they are to develop surely they need to be blooding future generations and getting decent sponsorships to improve their infrastructure. What kind of sponsor would pay to be advertised against faroe islands rather than Scotland live on sky sports?

What kind of child would jump at the chance to play andorra over germany?

I just dont see it would help when you look at the bigger picture. Countries like belarus and albania never qualify either. We might as well do what europe wants to do with the domestic clubs. Make a super league and stuff everyone else

[Arthur]

danny-boi,

No, I'm not a lawyer.

I never considered that you were taking a 'direct hit at MJG' and I apologise for not conveying this more clearly. In turn, it wasn't my intention to be critical in a personal sense: I merely noted what I perceived to be arguments that seemed incongruous to the stance that had been taken and, rightly or wrongly, felt that a better balance could prevail.

I also don't think my previous post implies in the slightest that I regard Gibraltar as 'rubbish'.

As for the rest of your post, you put forward an argument for including teams such as Gibraltar in the group stages. As I have already stated, I don't have a particular view (and I recognise that this is not an issue on which you hold a strong opinion either - further apologies for not acknowledging that in my original post). If I did look into the matter in more depth, I may well conclude that I agree with you.

[dannyboi-ffc]

Arthur no need to apoligise mate, I wish I could tell you face to face how its worded sometimes, it comes out more blunt than its intended too. I wasn't being spiteful when I said are you a lawyer, what I mean't was you go off on one having a speech using very intelligent words and phrase it in a very good way. I go off on one too but my style is more passion and it comes out how it comes out.

At the end of the day you are right when you say I am not that bothered either way, Gib mean absolutely nothing to me. I sometimes just feel that as a fulham fan I owe a duty to these underdogs when looked down on by the big boys.

I made some good points for my argument but MJG makes valid ones too. Without being too disrespectful to Scotland and for the record I am not anti Scottish, I hope they qualify. When a team loses 6-1 to them there's only so far you can fight their corner, but they are still puppies and I say give them a chance.

[MJG]

Here are the bottom teams in the groups as it currently stands

It could be argued that UEFA standing are pretty good; Bottom 4 teams in the ranking are currently bottom of the groups they are in. Just as they will be in the WC and then Euro's and repeat.

Group A 6 teams Kazakhstan    (32 ranked) 5 games 1 point -9GD
Group B 6 teams Andorra         (52 ranked) 5 games 0 points -18GD
Group C 6 teams Luxembourg     (43 Ranked) 5 games 1 point -11GD
Group D 6 teams Gibraltar        (54 ranked) 5 games 0 points -26GD
Group E 6 teams San Marino    (53 ranked) 5 games 1 point -17GD
Group F 6 Teams Greece         (13 ranked) 5 games 2 points -4GD
Group H 6 Teams Malta           (47 ranked) 5 games 1 point -8GD
Group I 5 Teams Armenia         (51 ranked) 4 games 1 point -3GD

My point is not to stop these countries taking part, in fact if you went down my route they would have a better chance of qualifying than ever before. I take on board the finances part of the argument as well, they need to play these teams to raise money. But ask the FA if they want to play San Marino or a better quality team in qualifying or even another big team friendly.
I would make the top ranked teams contribute to the lower FA's (just as the PL should do to the FL) as compensation.

Anyway back to the main point. Having a group of:
Andorra         (52 ranked)
Luxembourg     (43 Ranked)
Gibraltar        (54 ranked)
San Marino    (53 ranked)
Malta           (47 ranked)
Armenia         (51 ranked)

..Would really allow these teams to compete and compete at a level where they can learn to win, move away from defensive formations, be a bit more expressive.
Then on winning the group they go into the playoffs. They may need two playoff games as this group is not a standard group, but still more chance than they have now.
While in the other groups you have possibly a more balanced qualifying exciting result. Currently the odds are the bottom teams will finish with 1 or 2 pts, 8 or 9 games are losses and the group is decided on who scores the most goals.

Not perfect at all, but just one persons opinion on how to improve this aspect of the qualifying system.

[blingo]

Hey MJ are you Joey Barton in disguise? lol

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02n45cb

[Whitesideup]

MJG is right and Woolly is right to point out he is right. It's all very well to say every country has a right to play international football, but some of these matches are pointless. The FA Cup qualifying is a great example of teams having to earn the right to play in the latter stages of a competition. 

For those international matches that are meaningless we lose our life, soul and purpose for week-ends, or in fact even longer given the gaps between our games. We stand around aimlessly in the pub discussing whether the air around the Eiffel Tower weighs more than the metal in the construction. Such is the danger of the proliferation of mostly irrelevant international competition. It should not be under-estimated.

[blingo]

I believe its coming into force in 2018