martin

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

Apprentice, I would not disagree.  And I'm not saying that Martin is a wonderful player.  I am saying that Martin has abilities/attitude/talent/value to the team that are reasons SJ decides to include him in the match squad.   Given a choice between SJ and all the posters on this board in respect of team selection I know who I'd favour!

Jokanovic is limited to the squad that he has available. Our other forwards are pretty much interchangeable in style so Martin potentially offers something different.

The club were looking for one forward at least in January so clearly Jokanovic was looking for extra options and is not content with what he has available.

[J.Perkins]

Apprentice, I would not disagree.  And I'm not saying that Martin is a wonderful player.  I am saying that Martin has abilities/attitude/talent/value to the team that are reasons SJ decides to include him in the match squad.   Given a choice between SJ and all the posters on this board in respect of team selection I know who I'd favour!

Jokanovic is limited to the squad that he has available. Our other forwards are pretty much interchangeable in style so Martin potentially offers something different.

The club were looking for one forward at least in January so clearly Jokanovic was looking for extra options and is not content with what he has available.

We were approaching new strikers because Martins future was uncertain. Martin is better than a panic buy who would have to take time to settle. I'm glad Martin stuck around.

[davew]

Apprentice, I would not disagree.  And I'm not saying that Martin is a wonderful player.  I am saying that Martin has abilities/attitude/talent/value to the team that are reasons SJ decides to include him in the match squad.   Given a choice between SJ and all the posters on this board in respect of team selection I know who I'd favour!

(LOL), Martin certainly has attitude which is why most of us don't want him in our squad, as for the other attributes you mention.....the jury is still out on those...we will wait to see when he returns to Derby!

[davew]

I thought he looked lazy, disinterested and well off the pace.  Made a couple of half hearted jogs in the  vicinity of the box but tbh looked like he couldn't be bothered.  I was glad when he was subbed.  I'll be even happier when he has gone back to Derby and we can replace him with someone who actually cares about the team, as the rest of them clearly do.

He was just being himself, we can thank him for that his consistency! Perhaps we can arrange an extended loan deal with Derby next season, at least we know what we are going to get rather than waste money on players like we have "bought" before e.g. Jozabed.

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

Apprentice, I would not disagree.  And I'm not saying that Martin is a wonderful player.  I am saying that Martin has abilities/attitude/talent/value to the team that are reasons SJ decides to include him in the match squad.   Given a choice between SJ and all the posters on this board in respect of team selection I know who I'd favour!

Jokanovic is limited to the squad that he has available. Our other forwards are pretty much interchangeable in style so Martin potentially offers something different.

The club were looking for one forward at least in January so clearly Jokanovic was looking for extra options and is not content with what he has available.

We were approaching new strikers because Martins future was uncertain. Martin is better than a panic buy who would have to take time to settle. I'm glad Martin stuck around.

Martin's future was not uncertain. We had him signed up on a watertight contract and we said from the outset that he was not returning to Derby. Unless you mean not so much where he would be but whether he would bother to perform?

According to reports the main player we were after in January is/has been a long term target, not a panic buy. Anyway the point was that we were after a forward in January, something you would not ideally choose to do unless, as you suggest, unless you feel that you have a weakness.

If anyone was a panic buy it was Martin in the summer

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

Martin will be very poor value for money for £9m or do you disagree?

Yes I disagree. He's had specific issues here which might cause us not to want him, but he's still one of the championship's highest and most consistent scorers over the last 3/4 years. He essentially guarantees 20 goals for whichever club buys him and you just don't get that for less than £10m in the current market. Perhaps you can get an Enrich type deal from abroad for a bit less maybe but with any foreign signing you don't know whether they'll adapt and risk getting another Jozabed. If you want a proven player and guaranteed goals, look at the players I mentioned. The lack of premiership interest year after year shows the likes of Rhodes are nothing special but championship clubs will play OTT for them because of the massive rewards promotion delivers, and clubs will play OTT for strikers in particular (which is the main reason why I said comparisons don't really work).

Blimey, this puts your complaints about Khan, Kline and Mackintosh into some kind of context!

I am interested in value for money for Fulham, not other clubs, although I am not sure that there is much difference.

Yes, Championship clubs can pay the going price of £13m for McCormack, £9m for Martin and whatever for Rhodes, etc. and they may consistently get 20 goals and they might save you from relegation or keep you comfortably in mid-table but they are Championship players and never going to be PL starter quality.

If we are ambitious and want to get back to the PL, Martin not good value for money within our overall budget. He has not got us into the automatic promotion places or even into the playoffs places yet and he won't keep us in the PL should we get there.

Rather we might look to get someone like Enrich for a similar fee or lower who will have much more potential or we might get several younger and cheaper players, the likes of Cairney, one of whom might turn out to be as special.

There are many better ways of using the remaining £7m than giving it to Derby for Martin.

[davew]

Maybe Cyriac is the secret jewel in the crown!! Not seen a lot from him so far but there again we haven't seen him play a lot so far, a few signs in recent games that he might progress and be a star for us! Can't remember how much he cost to sign, but for desire and attitude in wanting to play for us, worth every penny!! A few goals and understand what other players are saying to him (language a problem apparently) and he could be a real bargain for us!

[davew]

I am getting lost now with all these copy and paste comments (lol), so in 1 sentence what are you guys saying? You love him or you hate him?

[davew]

Only 3% (approx) of the people who have viewed this topic have posted, does that mean 97% don't have an opinion or don't know? More analysis shows that it is about the average response to each topic though.

[nose]

Maybe Cyriac is the secret jewel in the crown!! Not seen a lot from him so far but there again we haven't seen him play a lot so far, a few signs in recent games that he might progress and be a star for us! Can't remember how much he cost to sign, but for desire and attitude in wanting to play for us, worth every penny!! A few goals and understand what other players are saying to him (language a problem apparently) and he could be a real bargain for us!

well put
he is clearly a good aquisition and looks more potent in terms of how the team will perform with him in it. martin is a lazy lump, our team requires 11 players giving their all, cyriac will do that, time to give him a chance./

[davew]

Thanks Nose, contrary to rumours even at this hour I can be sensible!

[EJL]

Its piontless havin a player on the pitch if no one gives him the ball,take note cairns.

:plus one:

We barely create any chances for our centre-forwards, whether it's been Smith, Martin, Woodrow or Cyriac. Cyriac made something out of nothing with that headed attempt.

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

Martin will be very poor value for money for £9m or do you disagree?

Yes I disagree. He's had specific issues here which might cause us not to want him, but he's still one of the championship's highest and most consistent scorers over the last 3/4 years. He essentially guarantees 20 goals for whichever club buys him and you just don't get that for less than £10m in the current market. Perhaps you can get an Enrich type deal from abroad for a bit less maybe but with any foreign signing you don't know whether they'll adapt and risk getting another Jozabed. If you want a proven player and guaranteed goals, look at the players I mentioned. The lack of premiership interest year after year shows the likes of Rhodes are nothing special but championship clubs will play OTT for them because of the massive rewards promotion delivers, and clubs will play OTT for strikers in particular (which is the main reason why I said comparisons don't really work).

Blimey, this puts your complaints about Khan, Kline and Mackintosh into some kind of context!

I am interested in value for money for Fulham, not other clubs, although I am not sure that there is much difference.

Yes, Championship clubs can pay the going price of £13m for McCormack, £9m for Martin and whatever for Rhodes, etc. and they may consistently get 20 goals and they might save you from relegation or keep you comfortably in mid-table but they are Championship players and never going to be PL starter quality.

If we are ambitious and want to get back to the PL, Martin not good value for money within our overall budget. He has not got us into the automatic promotion places or even into the playoffs places yet and he won't keep us in the PL should we get there.

Rather we might look to get someone like Enrich for a similar fee or lower who will have much more potential or we might get several younger and cheaper players, the likes of Cairney, one of whom might turn out to be as special.

There are many better ways of using the remaining £7m than giving it to Derby for Martin.

you're conflating players who'll get you back into the premiership with players who are PL starter quality. those are two very different standards, a key difference being that the latter are neither (a) achievable nor (b) necessary for a championship club. i agree with you martin is the former, not the latter, but the same applies to cairney, aluko et al just as it applies to chris wood, glen murray and jordan rhodes (one or two of whom are likely to get their teams promoted this year)

I am not conflating these groups of players.

So you are saying that having PL starter quality players are not achievable for Championship clubs? But that happens every season with promoted clubs.

And you are certain that Cairney and Aluko could never be PL starters? Or anyone else in the squad?

My point has always been simply that it does not make sense (and never has done hence the loan arrangement I suspect) to commit a large portion of money to a player, who it seem even you now agree, is not PL quality, is unlikely to get us 20 goals this season and may not get us into the playoff places.

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

Its piontless havin a player on the pitch if no one gives him the ball,take note cairns.

:plus one:

We barely create any chances for our centre-forwards, whether it's been Smith, Martin, Woodrow or Cyriac. Cyriac made something out of nothing with that headed attempt.

I know that it was only a fleeting moment but that header really impressed me.

Overall Cyriac's energy seems to match that of the other 10 players and he seems to want to get a shot or header on target. And, as you say, he made that out of what was not a particularly promising situation. I would give him a chance in preference to certain other parties who seem to me to be just going through the motions.

[MJG]

I'm with statto... I think.... Putting aside the Martin off field issue.... He has been a main striker in the championship and one who does guarantee a number of goals in it. Just like Rhodes and McCormack.

These strikers are what you need....  in the right team... If you want to try and go up.
Will they then be any good in PL? Probably not, but then how many strikers.... And I think you have to look at players position wise when talking about stepping up to PL..... Really do it in the PL after a good tear in the championship? Not many. The dreams of having a striker who then can do it for you regularly in the PL are almost exactly that.

I'm of the view you use the tools a auto get up and then upgrade. You have to that all over but strikers is the key position.Many go on about Abraham and how he would do well for us..... But PL would he?

We all have a view of Martin that is tainted from seeing him as a replacement for McCormack, only being a loan deal, slow start he had, then striking, below par performance two and now he's not being passed to. Well he's still got 11 vital goals, tactically I can see what he offers and Tuesday he was well marked by Leeds CB's, but he was still trying to lose them and make space, but didn't happen.

Is he worth 9m....yes in the context of the championship. Would I buy him? I would have done before he went on strike. I wouldn't now and that's the reason why. I'd prefer he wasn't playing, but Joka is picking him, he's not going away and he's an asset as a player.

A forward line of three nippy smallish guys is fine, but the ball doesn't really stick up there. That's what he's there for.

[Holders]

I'm with statto... I think.... Putting aside the Martin off field issue.... He has been a main striker in the championship and one who does guarantee a number of goals in it. Just like Rhodes and McCormack.

These strikers are what you need....  in the right team... If you want to try and go up.
Will they then be any good in PL? Probably not, but then how many strikers.... And I think you have to look at players position wise when talking about stepping up to PL..... Really do it in the PL after a good tear in the championship? Not many. The dreams of having a striker who then can do it for you regularly in the PL are almost exactly that.

I'm of the view you use the tools a auto get up and then upgrade. You have to that all over but strikers is the key position.Many go on about Abraham and how he would do well for us..... But PL would he?

We all have a view of Martin that is tainted from seeing him as a replacement for McCormack, only being a loan deal, slow start he had, then striking, below par performance two and now he's not being passed to. Well he's still got 11 vital goals, tactically I can see what he offers and Tuesday he was well marked by Leeds CB's, but he was still trying to lose them and make space, but didn't happen.

Is he worth 9m....yes in the context of the championship. Would I buy him? I would have done before he went on strike. I wouldn't now and that's the reason why. I'd prefer he wasn't playing, but Joka is picking him, he's not going away and he's an asset as a player.

A forward line of three nippy smallish guys is fine, but the ball doesn't really stick up there. That's what he's there for.

If you equate Martin's strike to Zamora's attitude they're quite similar in what the manager puts them  there for - as opposed to what the average fan (and I count myself in that) may see. When Zamora was getting stick from fans, Roy said that he was doing the job he was there to do.

I don't like Martin but if SJ plays him that's fine with me. If we continue to get results even if Martin just pulls defenders away from our skillful players that has a value as well even if he isn't scoring. There's still no excuse for him missing so many penalties though but I believe that Cyriac is a strong penalty-taker so maybe he'll take them if he's on the field.

[Woolly Mammoth]

Genitalmen, whatever our personal thoughts about Martin and any other players, at the end of the day, we just need a team/squad to get us promotion. Whether individual players are good enough to hold their own in the Premier League remains to be seen. Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves, as we have to achieve promotion first, somehow and whatever it takes, let us seize the moment and the opportunity.
Because once we get there, then we can think about what we need and who we need to stay there and cement ourselves there once again. Not only will we have the finance, but the status alone should and will attract better players. Promotion can have a domino effect, a little bit like relegation.
It's getting there first is the immediate challenge to overcome. Then comes the next challenge, which is staying there and building on what we have, and of course the extra money for getting there will come in handy. To be followed by a more lucrative sponsorships and bigger gates and income. They all run in conjunction with each other.
So let's just get there first. Because if we do, and the sooner the better, and there is never a bad time, the picture changes completely.
Not forgetting if we do make it. We can all look forward to watching Fulham come out last on match of the day every Saturday.
Now that would be compelling.

[EN1 FFC]

Only the other players and manager will know if Martin is fully committed. At present he is in the squad because we have no one better. He hasn't shown me that he is worth buying permanently. He lacks both height and speed, he very rarely runs past CB one on one and has not been an aerial threat at corners. His positives, because of his reputation he occupies both CBs and this helps other players, he has an instinct to shoot at goal but is not greedy and brings others into play, he's comfortable with both feet.
I don't think he is committed to Fulham so if he wants to return to Derby, I think Fulham can do better in the Transfer market and get a player who is an upgrade and has the speed and height.

[toshes mate]

There is a lot of ammunition for and against Martin in this thread, and some of it is even applicable both ways.  I agree with Woolly's last remark, which, ultimately, is why we all support Fulham, to see them last up on Match of the Day. 

Those who see Martin as a twenty Championship goals a season merchant consider that makes him an asset and SJ obviously agrees with that when he is selected.  The counter argument is that if he played to his ability and without 'the Derby Effect' Fulham would already be holding down first or second automatic promotion places by now, which is the position I would take too.  It means SJ plays Martin and hopes he will fulfill his greatest potential but, even if he doesn't, he will still embellish the team rather than despoil it. 

And that is where the debate gets into the realms of the hypothetical rather than the reality.  I have a vision that involves a Fulham squad player occupying Martin's position and not doing very well with it.  He is sensibly dropped from first team and the bench.  Then Martin is injured (or goes on strike) and SJ is forced to recall the squad player who then starts scoring goals like there is no tomorrow; he just clicks and everything he touches goes in.  Now it is possible at anytime between now and the end of the season that my vision becomes reality for one of the squad players.  It doesn't change Martin's value or worth; it doesn't negate the argument about transfer failures; it doesn't invalidate SJ's assessments of players for first team duty; it doesn't make the arguments on this forum any more sensible or less ridiculous.  It does win us a play off chance and the real possibility of promotion.   And that is what Woolly is saying just above me.

[toshes mate]

I don't think Martin is committed to Fulham so if he wants to return to Derby, I think Fulham can do better in the Transfer market and get a player who is an upgrade and has the speed and height.

I don't believe anyone can argue with your assessment even if Martin was more committed to playing for Fulham than he has ever been before.  He has not shown himself to be good enough to play at a higher level and unless and until he does so I have to agree with you.