Espanyol line up Fulham's Jokanovic

[toshes mate]

As to Austin's appointment during the Watford promotion season, you're entitled to speculate, but personally I don't think coincidence implies causation. I also think the idea that an assistant coach was having a greater impact on a team than its head coach, at any stage of the season, is frankly absurd. Even if (and IMO it's a massive, highly unlikely "if") their success was primarily attributable to Austin, I expect Jokanovic was involved in his appointment and collaborated with him effectively, achievements which are just as useful and relevant to us as getting Watford promoted on his own, unassisted. In other words if Jokanovic can only get us promoted by relying on Stuart Gray a little bit, that doesn't really bother me, just as long as he gets us promoted.

As neat and tidy a summary of anyone's role in any job as you could care to wish for.  If you (help to) make it happen then that is what you are being paid to do the job for. 

[Twig]

Yes we were a joy to watch but top six on merit? Not so sure.

Nope.

No matter how hard I try I simply cannot understand this.

How anyone can suggest we were not top six on merit is simply beyond me.  We were 5 points clear of the seventh place team.  People often say that at the end of the season the table doesn't lie and I tend to subscribe to this. We clearly made the playoffs on merit pure and simple.

[bog]

Yes we were a joy to watch but top six on merit? Not so sure.

Nope.

No matter how hard I try I simply cannot understand this.

:plus one:

How anyone can suggest we were not top six on merit is simply beyond me.  We were 5 points clear of the seventh place team.  People often say that at the end of the season the table doesn't lie and I tend to subscribe to this. We clearly made the playoffs on merit pure and simple.

[RaySmith]

Yes we were a joy to watch but top six on merit? Not so sure.

Nope.

No matter how hard I try I simply cannot understand this.

:plus one:

How anyone can suggest we were not top six on merit is simply beyond me.  We were 5 points clear of the seventh place team.  People often say that at the end of the season the table doesn't lie and I tend to subscribe to this. We clearly made the playoffs on merit pure and simple.

:plus one:

[ScalleysDad]

Yes we were a joy to watch but top six on merit? Not so sure.

Nope.

No matter how hard I try I simply cannot understand this.

:plus one:

How anyone can suggest we were not top six on merit is simply beyond me.  We were 5 points clear of the seventh place team.  People often say that at the end of the season the table doesn't lie and I tend to subscribe to this. We clearly made the playoffs on merit pure and simple.

:plus one:

Go on then debate it.
I said it because I think it is true. The midweek game against Leeds at The Cottage in early March of last season saw Cairney equalise in about the 98th minute. At that point we were still very unlikely to make top six. We had had a decidedly average January,we were still bemoaning strikers, style and tactics and some on here wanted to be Newcastle, until we went up there and thumped them! We had not been in the top six all season but we came good in April though with eleven goals in four games and twelve points, (lets not get bogged down with the Huddersfield second string),  whilst against all the odds Leeds only took three points from a possible fifteen. Yes at the end of the day, or the season in this case, the table does not lie but eighth or battling Norwich for seventh, bearing in mind our remarkably inconsistent season up to Christmas and equally average New Year and January, was the more likely scenario on that March evening. I think March was a mixed bagged for all the top eight teams, how on earth did Reading stay in the mix?, but had Leeds taken twelve from fifteen at the back end of the season as expected/projected we would not be having this debate. So did we hijack the promotion party, did we have more bottle than others come April, indeed did Norwich bottle it but I say again were we there on merit? After a season of inconsistency and some abject performances did we fluke it right at the death? We certainly did not light up the playoffs.

It seems remarkable that the debate on another top six finish is coming round again in a very similar scenario. Having gotten away with the points against Millwall and Birmingham, other Members words not mine, we lost at Brentford and Sunderland. I only add that to the mix because the match day threads, the MoM awards and the forum were in meltdown over our collective ineptitude ................ two weeks ago!!!!!!!!!!. Cardiff away was indeed a brilliant result, Hull needs to be as well and then we will have to see what January brings both in personnel and points.

I do not expect a reposte other than a stupid emoji or one liner so until the Joka 'stay or go' thread comes up again a Happy New Year all round ..................... especially to Dean Austen who's career I seem to have resurrected.

Oh by the way Astos. You were right. I missed 'great' off coach so I did shoot one of my feet off.

[davew]

It seems remarkable that the debate on another top six finish is coming round again in a very similar scenario. Having gotten away with the points against Millwall and Birmingham, other Members words not mine, we lost at Brentford and Sunderland. I only add that to the mix because the match day threads, the MoM awards and the forum were in meltdown over our collective ineptitude ................ two weeks ago!!!!!!!!!!. Cardiff away was indeed a brilliant result, Hull needs to be as well and then we will have to see what January brings both in personnel and points.

I think it is great that there is a feeling that in spite of all of the inept performances we may indeed challenge for a play off position, to be honest I cannot believe it! At the start of the season the fans expected an improvement on last year and let's be honest there hasn't been, far from it! We live in hope and the January transfer window will determine whether we are able to make a challenge or not for the play offs. Even allowing for my usual negativity, I would bet against us finishing in the top 6, top 8 maybe??

[Woolly Mammoth]

It is all very quiet on the Western Front, could that be encouraging news that targets have been secured, and breach of security is forbidden.
All are ordered to be on Radio Silent.
Or is everyone who is anyone involved with recruitment still in a coma.

[Twig]

Yes we were a joy to watch but top six on merit? Not so sure.

Nope.

No matter how hard I try I simply cannot understand this.

:plus one:

How anyone can suggest we were not top six on merit is simply beyond me.  We were 5 points clear of the seventh place team.  People often say that at the end of the season the table doesn't lie and I tend to subscribe to this. We clearly made the playoffs on merit pure and simple.

:plus one:

Go on then debate it.
I said it because I think it is true. The midweek game against Leeds at The Cottage in early March of last season saw Cairney equalise in about the 98th minute. At that point we were still very unlikely to make top six. We had had a decidedly average January,we were still bemoaning strikers, style and tactics and some on here wanted to be Newcastle, until we went up there and thumped them! We had not been in the top six all season but we came good in April though with eleven goals in four games and twelve points, (lets not get bogged down with the Huddersfield second string),  whilst against all the odds Leeds only took three points from a possible fifteen. Yes at the end of the day, or the season in this case, the table does not lie but eighth or battling Norwich for seventh, bearing in mind our remarkably inconsistent season up to Christmas and equally average New Year and January, was the more likely scenario on that March evening. I think March was a mixed bagged for all the top eight teams, how on earth did Reading stay in the mix?, but had Leeds taken twelve from fifteen at the back end of the season as expected/projected we would not be having this debate. So did we hijack the promotion party, did we have more bottle than others come April, indeed did Norwich bottle it but I say again were we there on merit? After a season of inconsistency and some abject performances did we fluke it right at the death? We certainly did not light up the playoffs.

It seems remarkable that the debate on another top six finish is coming round again in a very similar scenario. Having gotten away with the points against Millwall and Birmingham, other Members words not mine, we lost at Brentford and Sunderland. I only add that to the mix because the match day threads, the MoM awards and the forum were in meltdown over our collective ineptitude ................ two weeks ago!!!!!!!!!!. Cardiff away was indeed a brilliant result, Hull needs to be as well and then we will have to see what January brings both in personnel and points.

I do not expect a reposte other than a stupid emoji or one liner so until the Joka 'stay or go' thread comes up again a Happy New Year all round ..................... especially to Dean Austen who's career I seem to have resurrected.

Oh by the way Astos. You were right. I missed 'great' off coach so I did shoot one of my feet off.

You do not expect a "reposte" sic other than a stupid emoji or one liner....

Well I suggest you check my posts as I don't tend to use stupid emojis and I only use one line if that is all that is required.

Your protracted arguements were based on too many what ifs. If Leeds had done x, did Norwich bottle it, etc. You then ask did we fluke it right at the death? Err no because we were in the play off places before the death. If you don't think we made the playoffs on merit, well fine continue to believe black is white.  To my mind we were there because only five teams performed better over a season and the remainder failed to match us (the reasons are irrelevant and you can conjecture all you like).

I would add that in that entire season, when you contend we were poor until April, we suffered only 10 defeats. Only one team, Brighton, bettered that.

[ScalleysDad]

When I say poor I am thinking of three out of fifteen points in the September and fourteen draws across the season, a patchy Christmas and a so/so January but that is unresearched scribbling notes down stuff. Tell me I am wrong or is that really the cv of a convincing season and a top six finish on merit where, in case we forget, the opposition would go on to be much, much tougher.
I am yet to be convinced other wise so black is indeed white.

[Asotosyios]

When I say poor I am thinking of three out of fifteen points in the September and fourteen draws across the season, a patchy Christmas and a so/so January but that is unresearched scribbling notes down stuff. Tell me I am wrong or is that really the cv of a convincing season and a top six finish on merit where, in case we forget, the opposition would go on to be much, much tougher.
I am yet to be convinced other wise so black is indeed white.

So what you are saying (in very generic terms) is:
Fulham had a bad first half/good second half --> not deserve playoff place
Leeds had a good first half/bad second half --> deserves playoff place

Or did I get that wrong?

Also, one more question: if Jokanovic is not a good coach (for all the reasons mentioned earlier), does that make the other 18 coaches not good as well? Can we make it 20 adding Carvalhal and Stam as they didn't win promotion even if they got in the playoffs?

[RaySmith]

If we didn't get into the top six on merit - that is points accrued - then how did we get there. Bribery and corruption?

We also beat two of he eventually promoted teams - Newcastle, who were champions, and Huddersfield, home and away.

[toshes mate]

The prosecution, representing the SJ must go camp, fail, miserably I might add, to produce one shred of useful evidence to support their case and expect a riposte.  One of their camp even admits to scribbling notes down presumably on a piece of paper but fails to dispatch the argument that the final table at the conclusion cannot lie as a record of what happened although, of course, its detail may hide all sorts of riddles, goals allowed that shouldn't have been, goals disallowed that shouldn't have been, and so on.

Personally speaking I thought Reading should have been relegated on merit for cheating although I do admit to a certain bias when arguing this point.  I don't expect anyone else to argue the point with me because why would I want someone to indulge in my fantasy?

[toshes mate]

So what you are saying (in very generic terms) is:
Fulham had a bad first half/good second half --> not deserve playoff place
Leeds had a good first half/bad second half --> deserves playoff place

Or did I get that wrong?

Also, one more question: if Jokanovic is not a good coach (for all the reasons mentioned earlier), does that make the other 18 coaches not good as well? Can we make it 20 adding Carvalhal and Stam as they didn't win promotion even if they got in the playoffs?

Since '+1's' have been kind of belittled on this thread can I just say you hit the nail on its very head.

[Arthur]

When I say poor I am thinking of three out of fifteen points in the September and fourteen draws across the season, a patchy Christmas and a so/so January but that is unresearched scribbling notes down stuff. Tell me I am wrong or is that really the cv of a convincing season and a top six finish on merit where, in case we forget, the opposition would go on to be much, much tougher.
I am yet to be convinced other wise so black is indeed white.

The key word is 'merit'.

Whether we finished in the play-offs on merit cannot be demonstrated by analysing our form in isolation from other teams; it has to involve comparison. No matter how few points we accrued in September; irrespective of how many games we drew; regardless of how so-so we were in January, it does not preclude us from having finished in the top-six on merit. To be otherwise, the performance of a rival team would need to be broken down and their record put alongside ours.

Now whether we were 'convincing' is a different matter. A team doesn't necessarily have be convincing to merit something. (It could be argued, for instance, that our victory on Boxing Day was not a convincing one because it was in doubt until Johansen netted in the 97th minute. And yet, even Cardiff fans admit that we merited the win.)

As only the word 'merit' was in your earlier post, I must agree with Twig, Asotosyios et al: you have yet to show that a team that ended last season outside the top-six deserved to finish there instead of us.

As things stand, therefore, it can only be that we reached the play-offs on merit.

[ScalleysDad]

Some good points latterly. My scribbles whilst watching the cricket yawn fest turned out to be nearly spot on so it can work as a methodology and I am not an outee. I am however firmly in the JOka is not the messiah camp.
It goes without saying that I have a detailed reply but we are off, I am being dragged, to internet free Dartmoor for a couple of days so hold all those thoughts.
Safe travels to everyone going to Hull

049:gif of course

[MJG]

There are lots of stats I could throw into this discussion to back up us being in top six was merited and that last season was not a fluke as many now say.
One I'll give you is we were losing game on average for 19 mins per game, only four teams had a better record.
Another could be using the same type of stat was we were leading g on average 29 mins per game, only bettered by three teams.
This is all over the season where every team has a bad run at some time or another.
We had a bad run in September and Leeds had a bad run in April. It happens over a season.
The stats I produce for the tables, I never really look at who is in what position just what the points are and could be.
We deserved to be sixth because we got more points than the team in 7th who I suspect scored late goals in their season as well. Oh wait in fact Leeds scored 20 goals in last 15 mins plus of games, only Reading did better. So our last minute goal that night was lucky in many peoples eyes. Well sorry, go back and watch the last 15 minutes, we were camped in their half. We deserved that goal.
I know some don't like me saying we were the best team in second half of season, but we were. We need to do it again, will we? Honestly think it's a bit too much to ask, but it's possible and it's especially possible under this manager. His record at Watford and last season shows he's a second half of season manager in some ways. Not perfect, but when it works it's the best since Tigana.
COYW

[hovewhite]

Football wise up there with tigana as the football what ever level at times is wonderful, here's to the last 20 games plus.😀 cheers!

[HV71]

Thank you MJG - I am very tired of the moaning Minnie's ( who have sa right of course to say what they think but it seems nothing will ever please them ) . Thank you for the clarity of your post - though If we lose at Hull we can expect another polemic from those in the anti Joka camp

[ron]

It seems we have a Marmite manager in the sense that after a victory he is feted as being scarcely less than an angel, and after a defeat he has been panned as having no strategy for individual opponents and a morbid fear of not using players in their best positions.

The ray of hope for the future from the last game is that he has realised the problem with the latter ....and in the new year may get more of the former.......!!

[Skatzoffc]

For me he has to stay til end of season.

For a number of reasons:-

1. We are in a similar position at this stage as last year, so a play-off spot is possible/likely.
2. There is no-one else "out there" that I believe would make the changes reqd to guarantee success at this stage of the season.
3. I would like to see his hand in transfers in January. Tho I'm not sure he will get that power.
4. Imo, a number of our key players, (Cairney, StefJo etc), are still with us because they believe in Joka. I think they will go as soon as he does.


So, all in all, I see no point in changing mid-term.

COYW!