Our defensive unit is currently shocking !

[toshes mate]

The Best Defensive Players we can hope for is "lower premier league" defenders or "top championship" defenders, but they will still take two to six months to be a great unit, which means buy now and they will be ready to win "The Championship" next season.

That is a cue for a very useful piece of statistical data which is probably absent from current trends and that is how rapidly a player adapts to a new employer via reliable performance stats, say an index of 100, where 100 indicates settling into the new squad immediately and zero which presumably should mean 'never'.....

[nose returns]

Nose, maybe you should get some perspective. Bar Mitrovic none of our players would have started for Spurs' "B"team (well, maybe Seri). So it was not as if we were expected to win. Easier than normally yes, but Spurs were still huge favorites.

based on the what actually happened on the day it was unfortunate we didn't get a second when we were well on top BUT in the second half ranieri simply got the team to sit deeper and deeper and then he made some spectacularly foolish substitutions and still tried to sit deep which in the end invited them onto us. each change made us worse and freed up their players to come forward... that in the end was the predictable outcome of the manager's failings, that is all the perspective I need.

It was as obvious as alf, in 1970, taking off bobby charlton and trying to protect him for the next game (which never came) and protecting the lead with a more defensive player..allowing beckenbaur freedom of the park and it killed us then, just as the same errors of judgment killed us last sunday. even as a child i knew alf was wrong, and on sunday i knew ranieri was committing football suicide...

Fair enough then, and I agree with this, just thought that you meant that we in general should have beaten that Tottenham team. But on the day based on how the game went I agree, especially with the part on the first half where we should have scored one more.

I also agree that before the game I was not expecting quite such an encouraging first 30 minutes and spurs looked like they were on their knees, very disorganized and would have rather been home in the warm. but we let them off the hook..... seen it all before and honestly at about 35 minutes I started to get a very uncomfortable feeling it would go wrong

[Riversider]

Plenty of people getting excited about our front line but for me it counts for nothing unless we tighten up at the back,
Our back line will make us or break us this season, we don't want to be in a position whereby we have to score 2 or 3 goals just to get a point !
If you own a bungalow there is no point in buying an expensive security door if you are then going to go out for the day and leave all your windows open.
Our defence at the moment is weaker than the one we had last season and by some distance the weakest in the Premier League,
We need a left back that is better than Matt Targett,
We need a right back that is better than Ryan Fredericks
And a centre back that is better than Dennis Odoi,
We would then still need cover at left back and at centre back,
So yes get excited about the front line, but remember it's largely irrelevant until the defence gets strengthened,
So two weeks left and lots still to be done, the way we've gone about our business up front and in midfield I'm confident that the signings will come and confident that they will to the standard that we've seen so far,
George Graham built a great Arsenal team around his back 4, I hope we can do the same,
""One nil to the Super Whites, One nil to the Super Whites"

Almost one year ago I started this topic, and one year on the headline still applies today, and in my opinion that's truly shocking,
Less than 3 weeks from the start of the season and Christie and Odoi are still making up 50% of our back 4, why ?
This is the third transfer window that has been open since the original post was made, and I simply asked for a right back better than Ryan Fredericks,  a centre back that's better than Denis Odoi and a left back better than Matt Targett, absolutely incredible that none of those boxes have been ticked yet,
For us to even think about Top 2 this season we must make some defensive additions, why has everybody at our club got such a blind spot to where our problems lie ?
Less than 3 weeks to go we need defenders, we need pace/energy in midfield and we need another striker, sort it out Tony.

[bog]

I cannot believe that Denis Odoi was our first choice at centre back last night. 

092.gif

[Chutney]

I cannot believe that Denis Odoi was our first choice at centre back last night. 

092.gif

He's our only choice!

Nobody else capable of playing on the right side, mawson, le marchand and ream are all only capable of playing on the left side of the pairing.

[Chutney]

So you don't think either or both of Mawson and MLM are better centre backs than Odoi?

Also I suspect most would argue the need for better full-backs than Targett and Fredericks, if indeed there ever was such a need (given both those players are now playing for other PL clubs, I'd be inclined to say that even last season, they'd have been good enough for us) has been cancelled out by relegation.

The year we went up we had a back 4 of Targett, Ream, Odoi, Fredericks and it was still dodgy at times. Since then we have downgraded our full backs and replaced Ream with Mawson. We went up a division and improved one single player in our back 4...

[bog]

I cannot believe that Denis Odoi was our first choice at centre back last night. 

092.gif

He's our only choice!

Nobody else capable of playing on the right side, mawson, le marchand and ream are all only capable of playing on the left side of the pairing.

Perhaps it is me Chutney. Since last October our obvious fault is in defence, in January we were told 'we' are going to sign 'loads of players'  and here we are 10 months on from that October and still we have not signed anyone other than the 'versatile Nordvelt'. What do I know?  :022:   

[bobby01]

Just a thought from yesterday's game, if sp is going to play ak and cavielaero that wide, do we need to have full backs that bomb forward. Maybe they can play more defensively, in which case we would not need 2 defensive midfielders and change one of them for a more creative one.

[ALG01]

Plenty of people getting excited about our front line but for me it counts for nothing unless we tighten up at the back,
Our back line will make us or break us this season, we don't want to be in a position whereby we have to score 2 or 3 goals just to get a point !
If you own a bungalow there is no point in buying an expensive security door if you are then going to go out for the day and leave all your windows open.
Our defence at the moment is weaker than the one we had last season and by some distance the weakest in the Premier League,
We need a left back that is better than Matt Targett,
We need a right back that is better than Ryan Fredericks
And a centre back that is better than Dennis Odoi,
We would then still need cover at left back and at centre back,
So yes get excited about the front line, but remember it's largely irrelevant until the defence gets strengthened,
So two weeks left and lots still to be done, the way we've gone about our business up front and in midfield I'm confident that the signings will come and confident that they will to the standard that we've seen so far,
George Graham built a great Arsenal team around his back 4, I hope we can do the same,
""One nil to the Super Whites, One nil to the Super Whites"

Almost one year ago I started this topic, and one year on the headline still applies today, and in my opinion that's truly shocking,
Less than 3 weeks from the start of the season and Christie and Odoi are still making up 50% of our back 4, why ?
This is the third transfer window that has been open since the original post was made, and I simply asked for a right back better than Ryan Fredericks,  a centre back that's better than Denis Odoi and a left back better than Matt Targett, absolutely incredible that none of those boxes have been ticked yet,
For us to even think about Top 2 this season we must make some defensive additions, why has everybody at our club got such a blind spot to where our problems lie ?
Less than 3 weeks to go we need defenders, we need pace/energy in midfield and we need another striker, sort it out Tony.

You are so right. at the start of last seasona nd again now I have said similar things to you. Our defence is still way to weak and what isaw of mawsonm V porto I was not impressed, beaten in the penalty area to headers way to often and not looking all that. I know it was a friendly but he is not the man he was for his previous team and still have a grave doubt about his long term fitness. As for the rest of them I am very uneasy, Christie is a nightmare and I have to say despite his supportive reviews here, his positional sense when defending is nowhere near good enough.

We went up because slav was a genius, I do think SP is the right man for the job but I do not believe he is a genius in that way and I am expecting a poor season largely because the squad in general is not up to standard.

[Sting of the North]

Just a thought from yesterday's game, if sp is going to play ak and cavielaero that wide, do we need to have full backs that bomb forward. Maybe they can play more defensively, in which case we would not need 2 defensive midfielders and change one of them for a more creative one.

We didn't play with two defensive midfielders yesterday.

[Mike the White]

To be fair, I think SP is fully aware of what we need.  He's looking at options such Reece Oxford, a CB from Everton and a loanee from Chelsea, but looking and getting deals over the is another problem.
under Slav our defence was always a bit like a tea bag, the difference was we usually scored one or more than we conceded

[bog]

To be fair, I think SP is fully aware of what we need.  He's looking at options such Reece Oxford, a CB from Everton and a loanee from Chelsea, but looking and getting deals over the is another problem.
under Slav our defence was always a bit like a tea bag, the difference was we usually scored one or more than we conceded

And we played sensational football to get those goals.

092.gif

[Riversider]

So you don't think either or both of Mawson and MLM are better centre backs than Odoi?

Also I suspect most would argue the need for better full-backs than Targett and Fredericks, if indeed there ever was such a need (given both those players are now playing for other PL clubs, I'd be inclined to say that even last season, they'd have been good enough for us) has been cancelled out by relegation.

Jeez, so you are happy with our back 4, wow, in case you weren't aware we had one of the worst defences in England last season, there is literally no debate to be had over whether it needs to be improved or not , it does, and we've got less than 3 weeks to do it, the back 4 that played last night is no where near good enough to get us promoted.

[filham]

Remember Stearman and Sigurrdssen both had reasonable reputations when we bought them but failed with us. Is Mawson going the same way as those two.

[Maidstone Lee]

So you don't think either or both of Mawson and MLM are better centre backs than Odoi?

Also I suspect most would argue the need for better full-backs than Targett and Fredericks, if indeed there ever was such a need (given both those players are now playing for other PL clubs, I'd be inclined to say that even last season, they'd have been good enough for us) has been cancelled out by relegation.

Jeez, so you are happy with our back 4, wow, in case you weren't aware we had one of the worst defences in England last season, there is literally no debate to be had over whether it needs to be improved or not , it does, and we've got less than 3 weeks to do it, the back 4 that played last night is no where near good enough to get us promoted.

Agree with you Riversider 100%. Defence needs to be upgraded ASAP.

[Matt10]

So you don't think either or both of Mawson and MLM are better centre backs than Odoi?

Also I suspect most would argue the need for better full-backs than Targett and Fredericks, if indeed there ever was such a need (given both those players are now playing for other PL clubs, I'd be inclined to say that even last season, they'd have been good enough for us) has been cancelled out by relegation.

Jeez, so you are happy with our back 4, wow, in case you weren't aware we had one of the worst defences in England last season, there is literally no debate to be had over whether it needs to be improved or not , it does, and we've got less than 3 weeks to do it, the back 4 that played last night is no where near good enough to get us promoted.

I will agree that the defensive line isn't the best. However, having the worst defences is not reflection of just the back 4.

A lot of our goals conceded were hardly from being broken down versus self-inflicted and Ranieri + Slav's nature of not pressing high up the pitch. Instead, we sat back and absorbed pressure. Us. The worst defence in the league, and our managers chose to absorb pressure versus create it. Ranieri chose to bring our two CDMs in Seri and Chambers to float side to side as a tandem, while Slavisa stuck and twist with strategies, none of which were a high pressure at any point.

When Parker was appointed there was a different look to our defensive pressuring. It was throughout the entire pitch at bursts from Mitro to whoever the CAM or CDM was. Last night, we defended against Porto in a 4-4-2 though, but was broken down with Porto's advanced central midfielders and attackers, thus forcing our 2 (Johansen) to drop back further and become outnumbered. Once McDonald and Johansen were breached, it forced our defenders into immediate and lop-sided action in 4v3 situations.

If Parker can use that experience as a building block for certain scenarios, I think even the back 4 we have right now can adjust accordingly. I would prefer someone other than Odoi at RCB personally, but I won't knock good efforts. Just, as a coach, I have some hesitations in his decision making overall - that's for another thread :) .

[Sting of the North]

So you don't think either or both of Mawson and MLM are better centre backs than Odoi?

Also I suspect most would argue the need for better full-backs than Targett and Fredericks, if indeed there ever was such a need (given both those players are now playing for other PL clubs, I'd be inclined to say that even last season, they'd have been good enough for us) has been cancelled out by relegation.

Jeez, so you are happy with our back 4, wow, in case you weren't aware we had one of the worst defences in England last season, there is literally no debate to be had over whether it needs to be improved or not , it does, and we've got less than 3 weeks to do it, the back 4 that played last night is no where near good enough to get us promoted.

I think this thread alone is proof that there is debate to be had. Literally.

[WindyCity]

We have to sign a left back and a right Centre Back if we want to keep a clean sheet this season.

I too am very concerned about strengthening the backline defense.  If upgrades are not engaged, I fear FFC could be nothing more than mid table, to lower table quality.  And yes, the offense needs a bit of help too, need some speedy wingers, players who can serve into the box.  Mitro only good as a strong presence in the box.  His slow pace reduces FFC chances at transition breakouts.  need some speed on the sides, and need, most importantly in my view, to get really strong on the backline.  Still time to do so, but time goes by fast, and before you know it, the season will be starting.  Get to it, FFC!

[Riversider]

So you don't think either or both of Mawson and MLM are better centre backs than Odoi?

Also I suspect most would argue the need for better full-backs than Targett and Fredericks, if indeed there ever was such a need (given both those players are now playing for other PL clubs, I'd be inclined to say that even last season, they'd have been good enough for us) has been cancelled out by relegation.

Jeez, so you are happy with our back 4, wow, in case you weren't aware we had one of the worst defences in England last season, there is literally no debate to be had over whether it needs to be improved or not , it does, and we've got less than 3 weeks to do it, the back 4 that played last night is no where near good enough to get us promoted.

I will agree that the defensive line isn't the best. However, having the worst defences is not reflection of just the back 4.

A lot of our goals conceded were hardly from being broken down versus self-inflicted and Ranieri + Slav's nature of not pressing high up the pitch. Instead, we sat back and absorbed pressure. Us. The worst defence in the league, and our managers chose to absorb pressure versus create it. Ranieri chose to bring our two CDMs in Seri and Chambers to float side to side as a tandem, while Slavisa stuck and twist with strategies, none of which were a high pressure at any point.

When Parker was appointed there was a different look to our defensive pressuring. It was throughout the entire pitch at bursts from Mitro to whoever the CAM or CDM was. Last night, we defended against Porto in a 4-4-2 though, but was broken down with Porto's advanced central midfielders and attackers, thus forcing our 2 (Johansen) to drop back further and become outnumbered. Once McDonald and Johansen were breached, it forced our defenders into immediate and lop-sided action in 4v3 situations.

If Parker can use that experience as a building block for certain scenarios, I think even the back 4 we have right now can adjust accordingly. I would prefer someone other than Odoi at RCB personally, but I won't knock good efforts. Just, as a coach, I have some hesitations in his decision making overall - that's for another thread :) .

Agree with a lot of what you say regarding the midfield, and despite what some on here will have you believe,  we can not under any circumstance play Cairney and McDonald together in midfield,  both are embarrassingly slow, you can get away with playing one but you can't play both together, we've been linked with Mo Besic and Harry Arter and I sincerely hope there's some truth in those rumours.

[toshes mate]

There are many things that contribute to a good defence.  Discipline and organisation of individual players is crucial no matter what their reputations and price tags are, especially under pressure.  But a former head coach of ours showed the way to build teams, not from the best money can buy, but from meaningful training and coaching routines that instill the virtues of holding onto the ball, being brave in possession, and learning how to pass the ball to take an opponent or two out of the game completely if only for several seconds. 

I certainly agree that there seems to be evidence that FFC have missed a few chances at signing better known defenders and we will never truly know why.  It seems something of a parody when we hear or read stories of 'stars' looking around MP and that being the last we hear of them, and we are left to wonder why they turned us down.  But we really need to wise up to the virtues of developing those who want to play for us because without that development we certainly would not have achieved promotion under the Khans.   Last season is a marker we can all lay down because it bothers us that our recruitment makes so many errors and last season was literally plagued with them.   I think we have to get used to living with that situation until it is changed for whatever reason it happens.  We can win things with a good coach.  Until SJ had his first complete season he was no big deal; I am hoping SP can emulate him. 

What happens in the transfer window is what happens but after the window shuts it is all about SP and his band of players.  I am not expecting any good surprises from recruitment because history tells me that they don't come along too often from the current team and if it takes Denis Odoi to head the winning goal to reach Wembley next year then I'll be saying 'thank goodness they didn't sell the guy'.