Time to Start Building The Team

[Woolly Mammoth]

I have no confidence we will make the right kind of signings or in plenty of time to settle in before the season starts.

What do you mean most Fulham fans, I think you are a little presumptuous there. All the ones I know, and I know many, were confused and Could not understand the logic of what TK was doing

With all due respect, and no offense intended, your particular circle of friends and what they thought did not share the same opinion as a majority on this forum did as FFC finalized all of their acquisitions heading into this past season.  I saw, "for the most part", many very excited fans on this forum, optimistic, looking for something mid table or lower table but survival.  Again, just noting what happened only here on this forum.  Sure, some did question some of the moves and money spent, just as you did in this above discussion, but to be fair, I believe a solid majority on this forum were very happy campers.

You must be living about 3000 miles away to make that statement, how do you know. You should not take too much notice on what is said on this forum including mine it's just opinions, however I know what I know and you don't know what I know.

Wow, Wooly, that's pretty snarky.  My post was respectful and with no offense intended.  Point being, all I have is this forum to gain knowledge and understand what FFC fans might be thinking and talking about.  And there was no question about it, this fan forum was extremely happy with the acquisitions made heading into this past season, the lateness notwithstanding.  Excuuuuuse Me!

Apologies Windycity I did not intend to come across like that, I am sorry.

[Statto]

I'm fully expecting Johansen and Seri to be gone, and I want Kamara gone (especially if Mitrovic stays). And even in Ayite and Kamara's case, they were rotation options at best for us last time around. I personally want us to phase Ream, Odoi and McDonald out over the next season (going back to the two year plan thing) because they've shown this season that they're nowhere near Prem standard- so I'd rather try and build a settled core Starting XI that could get us up and at least give us a chance of staying up.

Similar to Wolves in that sense that they had what? 8 of their Starting XI from the Championship starting in the Prem and only lost Ruddy, Douglas and Cavaleiro/Costa from it, but obviously not as good as finishing 7th because we don't have Mendes on speed dial.

If we ended up with a Starting XI of Bettinelli; Tomori, Mawson, Le Marchand; Sangare, Anguissa, Lewicki, Bryan; Cairney; Mitrovic, Gulbrandsen. That's 1 loan (Tomori) and spending at most 10m total and (in my opinion) gives us a fighting chance if we did get promoted with that team in that we'd only have to sign 3 or 4 starters for the following Prem season.

The thing with Tony Khan is when he spends serious money they usually flop (Jozabed, Sigurdsson, Fonte etc.) but he can play the loan market (Targett) and get some bargains as well (Malone, Aluko) so in the situation we're in where we can't spend much but on the same notion don't need to sign 10-12 players I'm hoping we get some good cheap ones like Sangare and Gulbrandsen.

The thing is, we signed 11 new players in the summer and only one (Bryan) performed at the level we expected him to. The rest turned out worse than they had looked on paper. So whilst I don't know enough about the players you've mentioned to dismiss them, they're unknown quantities, and I'd rather stick with players who now know Fulham, know our style of play, know each other, know the English game, know (in most cases) the Championship, and who we know are Championship top 6 quality.

I wouldn't be surprised if Seri leaves but I've not seen any serious rumours about an outward deal as yet, nor any significant evidence that Johansen or Kamara won't be here next year.

I also think it's unfair to call Ayite a rotation player. He always started when he was fit.

I agree with phasing out Ream, Odoi and McDonald, but even with just our current players, I'd probably have MLM (or even better, Kalas back on loan) ahead of Ream, Anguissa ahead of McDonald and hopefully by the end of the year, Steven Sessegnon ahead of Odoi at RB.

Personally I'd settle for 2-3 signings. Kalas and Dwight Gayle and no other business would be a fantastic summer IMO.       

[wheelerdeeler]

I'm fully expecting Johansen and Seri to be gone, and I want Kamara gone (especially if Mitrovic stays). And even in Ayite and Kamara's case, they were rotation options at best for us last time around. I personally want us to phase Ream, Odoi and McDonald out over the next season (going back to the two year plan thing) because they've shown this season that they're nowhere near Prem standard- so I'd rather try and build a settled core Starting XI that could get us up and at least give us a chance of staying up.

Similar to Wolves in that sense that they had what? 8 of their Starting XI from the Championship starting in the Prem and only lost Ruddy, Douglas and Cavaleiro/Costa from it, but obviously not as good as finishing 7th because we don't have Mendes on speed dial.

If we ended up with a Starting XI of Bettinelli; Tomori, Mawson, Le Marchand; Sangare, Anguissa, Lewicki, Bryan; Cairney; Mitrovic, Gulbrandsen. That's 1 loan (Tomori) and spending at most 10m total and (in my opinion) gives us a fighting chance if we did get promoted with that team in that we'd only have to sign 3 or 4 starters for the following Prem season.

The thing with Tony Khan is when he spends serious money they usually flop (Jozabed, Sigurdsson, Fonte etc.) but he can play the loan market (Targett) and get some bargains as well (Malone, Aluko) so in the situation we're in where we can't spend much but on the same notion don't need to sign 10-12 players I'm hoping we get some good cheap ones like Sangare and Gulbrandsen.

The thing is, we signed 11 new players in the summer and only one (Bryan) performed at the level we expected him to. The rest turned out worse than they had looked on paper. So whilst I don't know enough about the players you've mentioned to dismiss them, they're unknown quantities, and I'd rather stick with players who now know Fulham, know our style of play, know each other, know the English game, know (in most cases) the Championship, and who we know are Championship top 6 quality.

I wouldn't be surprised if Seri leaves but I've not seen any serious rumours about an outward deal as yet, nor any significant evidence that Johansen or Kamara won't be here next year.

I also think it's unfair to call Ayite a rotation player. He always started when he was fit.

I agree with phasing out Ream, Odoi and McDonald, but even with just our current players, I'd probably have MLM (or even better, Kalas back on loan) ahead of Ream, Anguissa ahead of McDonald and hopefully by the end of the year, Steven Sessegnon ahead of Odoi at RB.

Personally I'd settle for 2-3 signings. Kalas and Dwight Gayle and no other business would be a fantastic summer IMO.       

Everyone's on holiday at the moment (and Seri's at AFCON), so I wouldn't read too much into there not being many links. Some foreign leagues only finished about a week ago.

We both know it won't just be 2-3 signings though. With likely outgoings and "just" your 2-3 signings we'd be looking at a squad of;
GK: Bettinelli, Rodak
CB: Mawson, Le Marchand, Kalas, Ream, S. Sessegnon
LB: Bryan
RB: Christie, Fossey/Drameh
CM: Cairney, Johansen, Zambo, McDonald, O'Riley, Cisse
Wingers: Ayite, Kebano, Elliott
ST: Mitrovic, Gayle, Rui Fonte

I know players like Odoi and Le Marchand can cover other positions- but that leaves us very thin and puts a lot of responsibility on completely unproven youth players in probably the hardest league in the world to make your debut in as a kid. We've surely learned that from the last time we got relegated where we just basically chucked the Youth Cup final team into the 1st team squad and made it sink or swim, and all bar about 3 sunk.

Plus, I don't see why Kalas would want to sign for us after we ignored him last year. Same for Piazon.

[Statto]

I'm fully expecting Johansen and Seri to be gone, and I want Kamara gone (especially if Mitrovic stays). And even in Ayite and Kamara's case, they were rotation options at best for us last time around. I personally want us to phase Ream, Odoi and McDonald out over the next season (going back to the two year plan thing) because they've shown this season that they're nowhere near Prem standard- so I'd rather try and build a settled core Starting XI that could get us up and at least give us a chance of staying up.

Similar to Wolves in that sense that they had what? 8 of their Starting XI from the Championship starting in the Prem and only lost Ruddy, Douglas and Cavaleiro/Costa from it, but obviously not as good as finishing 7th because we don't have Mendes on speed dial.

If we ended up with a Starting XI of Bettinelli; Tomori, Mawson, Le Marchand; Sangare, Anguissa, Lewicki, Bryan; Cairney; Mitrovic, Gulbrandsen. That's 1 loan (Tomori) and spending at most 10m total and (in my opinion) gives us a fighting chance if we did get promoted with that team in that we'd only have to sign 3 or 4 starters for the following Prem season.

The thing with Tony Khan is when he spends serious money they usually flop (Jozabed, Sigurdsson, Fonte etc.) but he can play the loan market (Targett) and get some bargains as well (Malone, Aluko) so in the situation we're in where we can't spend much but on the same notion don't need to sign 10-12 players I'm hoping we get some good cheap ones like Sangare and Gulbrandsen.

The thing is, we signed 11 new players in the summer and only one (Bryan) performed at the level we expected him to. The rest turned out worse than they had looked on paper. So whilst I don't know enough about the players you've mentioned to dismiss them, they're unknown quantities, and I'd rather stick with players who now know Fulham, know our style of play, know each other, know the English game, know (in most cases) the Championship, and who we know are Championship top 6 quality.

I wouldn't be surprised if Seri leaves but I've not seen any serious rumours about an outward deal as yet, nor any significant evidence that Johansen or Kamara won't be here next year.

I also think it's unfair to call Ayite a rotation player. He always started when he was fit.

I agree with phasing out Ream, Odoi and McDonald, but even with just our current players, I'd probably have MLM (or even better, Kalas back on loan) ahead of Ream, Anguissa ahead of McDonald and hopefully by the end of the year, Steven Sessegnon ahead of Odoi at RB.

Personally I'd settle for 2-3 signings. Kalas and Dwight Gayle and no other business would be a fantastic summer IMO.       

Everyone's on holiday at the moment (and Seri's at AFCON), so I wouldn't read too much into there not being many links. Some foreign leagues only finished about a week ago.

We both know it won't just be 2-3 signings though. With likely outgoings and "just" your 2-3 signings we'd be looking at a squad of;
GK: Bettinelli, Rodak
CB: Mawson, Le Marchand, Kalas, Ream, S. Sessegnon
LB: Bryan
RB: Christie, Fossey/Drameh
CM: Cairney, Johansen, Zambo, McDonald, O'Riley, Cisse
Wingers: Ayite, Kebano, Elliott
ST: Mitrovic, Gayle, Rui Fonte

I know players like Odoi and Le Marchand can cover other positions- but that leaves us very thin and puts a lot of responsibility on completely unproven youth players in probably the hardest league in the world to make your debut in as a kid. We've surely learned that from the last time we got relegated where we just basically chucked the Youth Cup final team into the 1st team squad and made it sink or swim, and all bar about 3 sunk.

Plus, I don't see why Kalas would want to sign for us after we ignored him last year. Same for Piazon.

Ok so in red I've written the players from the best team in the Championship for most of last year.

I'm struggling to see any areas where we're weaker. Perhaps RB. But stronger at CB, CM and CF.

I was close to saying I respect your opinion and we can agree to disagree, but for you to compare this to the 2014 situation is pretty absurd with all due respect. In fact within the realm of what's conceivably possible, I genuinely don't think the two situations could be further apart. 

GK: Bettinelli, Rodak
Bettinelli, Button
CB: Mawson, Le Marchand, Kalas, Ream, S. Sessegnon
Kalas, Ream, Odoi, Djalo
LB: Bryan
Targett
RB: Christie, Fossey/Drameh, S. Sessegnon
Fredericks, Christie
CM: Cairney, Johansen, Zambo, McDonald, O'Riley, Cisse
Cairney, Johansen, McDonald, Norwood, Cisse, Piazon
Wingers: Ayite, Kebano, Kamara, Elliott
Ayite, Kebano, Kamara, Ojo
ST: Mitrovic, Gayle, Rui Fonte
Mitrovic, Rui Fonte

[wheelerdeeler]

Much weaker at Right-Back, and on the wings without R. Sessegnon who you've seemingly missed. I don't think it's unfair to suggest that we shouldn't be reliant on our youth players to make up the numbers next season given we don't actually know how good any of them actually are at senior level as none of them have been loaned out except Rodak. I'd rather stick to what Jokanovic effectively did was having the main starting team, have the youth players heavily involved in Cup games and then give minutes here and there in the league like he did with de la Torre, Edun etc. and if one breaks through like R. Sessegnon did then fair play.

Just as an example, I'm 99% certain Ream is worse than he was when we got promoted thanks to that back injury. Players like McDonald have another year in their legs etc. It's complacent to expect the same results with players under completely different circumstances- for all we know someone like Ream was a system player and will be nowhere near as suited to playing under Parker as he was under Jokanovic.

Plus generally speaking I think we need to bring some freshness to the squad to help shake off the cobwebs of last season- because Motspur Park won't have been a fun place to be last season. As I talked about in the Transfers Blog I posted in the Summer Gossip page, I want more leaders in the squad to hold other players accountable/to a certain standard and based on the player he was I expect Parker will too. Only genuine leaders in that squad I'd say are McDonald and maybe Mitrovic. Maybe Ream as well, but the point still stands.

My squad isn't too dissimilar, but it's based on me expecting players like Johansen to leave, wanting us to play a 3-4-1-2 (what formation are we playing with your hypothetical squad?) and also wanting more senior players.
GK: Bettinelli, Rodak
CB: Mawson, Le Marchand, Tomori, Ream, S. Sessegnon
LB: Bryan, Odoi
RB: Sangare, Fossey/Drameh (loan the other one out)
DM: Zambo, Lewicki/Woods, McDonald, Geipl
#10: Cairney, O'Riley, Rui Fonte
Forwards: Mitrovic (or someone new), Gulbrandsen, Ayite, Kebano

I haven't even mentioned Elliott, de la Torre, Edun etc. S. Sessegnon, O'Riley and Fossey or Drameh (personal preference for me is Drameh) are the only three I'd look to properly integrate into the first team squad next season.

[Statto]

I don't think it's unfair to suggest that we shouldn't be reliant on our youth players to make up the numbers next season given we don't actually know how good any of them actually are at senior level as none of them have been loaned out except Rodak. I'd rather stick to what Jokanovic effectively did was having the main starting team, have the youth players heavily involved in Cup games and then give minutes here and there in the league like he did with de la Torre, Edun etc. and if one breaks through like R. Sessegnon did then fair play.

Agree entirely. Not really sure this little rant is relevant though. If we kept our current squad, the involvement of youth players would be Rodak as backup GK, Steven Sessegnon as one of 3 players competing for RB, and O'Riley as our 5th/6th choice CM. Are you suggesting that would make us "reliant on our youth players"? 

Just as an example, I'm 99% certain Ream is worse than he was when we got promoted thanks to that back injury. Players like McDonald have another year in their legs etc.

I'd say you're about 10% certain of that, not 99%. And I am at least as certain (ie, not very certain at all, but it's possible) that our younger players such as Bettinelli, Kebano and Kamara will have improved since 17/18, as most players do through their mid-20s.

It's complacent to expect the same results with players under completely different circumstances- for all we know someone like Ream was a system player and will be nowhere near as suited to playing under Parker as he was under Jokanovic.

Fine. But I both hope and expect us to continue playing 4-3-3 as we've been doing for the last few years.

Plus generally speaking I think we need to bring some freshness to the squad to help shake off the cobwebs of last season- because Motspur Park won't have been a fun place to be last season. As I talked about in the Transfers Blog I posted in the Summer Gossip page, I want more leaders in the squad to hold other players accountable/to a certain standard and based on the player he was I expect Parker will too. Only genuine leaders in that squad I'd say are McDonald and maybe Mitrovic. Maybe Ream as well, but the point still stands.

My squad isn't too dissimilar, but it's based on me expecting players like Johansen to leave, wanting us to play a 3-4-1-2 (what formation are we playing with your hypothetical squad?) and also wanting more senior players.
GK: Bettinelli, Rodak
CB: Mawson, Le Marchand, Tomori, Ream, S. Sessegnon
LB: Bryan, Odoi
RB: Sangare, Fossey/Drameh (loan the other one out)
DM: Zambo, Lewicki/Woods, McDonald, Geipl
#10: Cairney, O'Riley, Rui Fonte
Forwards: Mitrovic (or someone new), Gulbrandsen, Ayite, Kebano

I haven't even mentioned Elliott, de la Torre, Edun etc. S. Sessegnon, O'Riley and Fossey or Drameh (personal preference for me is Drameh) are the only three I'd look to properly integrate into the first team squad next season.

I understand your position.
You want to change our tactics and half our starting XI.
To me that sounds like everything Tony Khan has got wrong this season. Too much upheaval and too little cohesion. I think it's the worst thing we could do. I couldn't disagree more.

[wheelerdeeler]

"I'd say you're about 10% certain of that, not 99%."

No I am pretty certain. He's without question looked slower both in-terms of pace, but also with reactions etc. which has exposed us a lot given he bailed us out in 1-on-1 situations quite a few times in 17/18. The reason it's not 100% is that the Prem is a generally quicker league, so going back to "his level" might make him better off.

"that our younger players such as Bettinelli, Kebano and Kamara will have improved since 17/18, as most players do through their mid-20s."

Bettinelli's just had a major knee surgery, we have no idea how he's going to respond to it, Kebano was completely ignored by Jokanovic in the 2nd half of the 17/18 season- I genuinely don't think he's played 10 games since the start of 2018 and he even got dropped by DR Congo for AFCON. Not much improvement there. And Kamara's still... shall we say "raw" and likely to leave.

"I both hope and expect us to continue playing 4-3-3 as we've been doing for the last few years."

Under Parker we played 4-3-3 maybe twice? I can't remember if you're the person who said there's no difference between a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3, but if you are- yes, yes there is. And if we want to get the best out of Zambo (if he stays) he needs to be playing with a DM partner hence my wanting a 3-4-1-2 to also maximise the strengths of Mawson and Bryan to name two.

But how is your 4-3-3 lining up anyhow? Bettinelli; Christie, Kalas, Mawson, Bryan; Zambo, Cairney, Johansen; Gayle RW?, Mitrovic, Ayite. Might just be me, but that looks a little bit top heavy. And you didn't answer my point of asking why Kalas would want to sign for us after we binned him off last summer.

"You want to change our tactics and half our starting XI."

In case you didn't notice, our tactics and Starting XI got 26 Points in 38 games last season. They might be worth a rethink. I want us to go back up (if we do) with a system and tactics already in place to give us a chance of succeeding in the Prem which a 3 at the back does because it's adaptable and gives your more defensive security. And as we proved very clearly last season, playing attacking 4-3-3 is a recipe for conceding 3+ goals a game in the Prem.

[The Rational Fan]

If you watch both playoff final teams and FFC against Liverpool, then i think FFC was better than Aston Villa or Derby.

From Fulham's starting XI against Liverpool most are coming back, we only need to replace a loan GK, RB, CB and LW. I think we can be just as strong if we replace Rico with Betts, TFM with Christie and the CB (Chambers) with Mawson, that leaves two areas to strengthen i) a replacement of Babel (like Gayle) and ii) replacing the bench players including Sess (maybe Piazon), Vietto (maybe Fonte) and adding a CB (maybe Kalas).

FFC best chance is selling Ryan Sessegnon and buying/loaning players similar to Gayle, Piazon and Kalas, that is a strong team. And if we sell Steven Sessegnon, we will need to buy a $2m backup that can cover Odoi at RB and preferable LB too.

Any rebuild fails due to Accountancy reasons or Football Reasons. Accountants would want to rebuild by selling Sessegnon, Mitrovoic, Bryan and Cairney, this would lead to a better squad but i fully expect terrible football with so much change. Football experts may want to sell Seri, Anguissa and Mawson but accountants would tell you that would make Fulham broke and find we cannot get the replacements we thought we could.

Best is make do with what we have, add what we can and where we need it most immediately. A rebuild attempt in tears with replacements not occurring in time or being worse than what we are replacing. A rebuild is the "Road to Ruin", like it was for Sunderland. There is a chance that Seri, Anguissa, Mawson or Mitrovoic get PFA player of the season next season that is our best hope.

[The Rational Fan]

"I'd say you're about 10% certain of that, not 99%."

No I am pretty certain. He's without question looked slower both in-terms of pace, but also with reactions etc. which has exposed us a lot given he bailed us out in 1-on-1 situations quite a few times in 17/18. The reason it's not 100% is that the Prem is a generally quicker league, so going back to "his level" might make him better off.

"that our younger players such as Bettinelli, Kebano and Kamara will have improved since 17/18, as most players do through their mid-20s."

Bettinelli's just had a major knee surgery, we have no idea how he's going to respond to it, Kebano was completely ignored by Jokanovic in the 2nd half of the 17/18 season- I genuinely don't think he's played 10 games since the start of 2018 and he even got dropped by DR Congo for AFCON. Not much improvement there. And Kamara's still... shall we say "raw" and likely to leave.

"I both hope and expect us to continue playing 4-3-3 as we've been doing for the last few years."

Under Parker we played 4-3-3 maybe twice? I can't remember if you're the person who said there's no difference between a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3, but if you are- yes, yes there is. And if we want to get the best out of Zambo (if he stays) he needs to be playing with a DM partner hence my wanting a 3-4-1-2 to also maximise the strengths of Mawson and Bryan to name two.

But how is your 4-3-3 lining up anyhow? Bettinelli; Christie, Kalas, Mawson, Bryan; Zambo, Cairney, Johansen; Gayle RW?, Mitrovic, Ayite. Might just be me, but that looks a little bit top heavy. And you didn't answer my point of asking why Kalas would want to sign for us after we binned him off last summer.

"You want to change our tactics and half our starting XI."

In case you didn't notice, our tactics and Starting XI got 26 Points in 38 games last season. They might be worth a rethink. I want us to go back up (if we do) with a system and tactics already in place to give us a chance of succeeding in the Prem which a 3 at the back does because it's adaptable and gives your more defensive security. And as we proved very clearly last season, playing attacking 4-3-3 is a recipe for conceding 3+ goals a game in the Prem.

The XI suggested maybe a little top heavy (i.e attacking) against good teams like Leeds, Cardiff and WBA; but it is the perfect lineup to dispose of bottom seven teams that we dropped 17 points against in 17/18 including Hull City, Birmingham City, Reading, Bolton Wanderers x2, Burton Albion and Sunderland.

Norwich and Sheffield United proved that in the Championship "most of a teams 26 wins will be achieved by disposing of bottom half table teams consistently". Of course, that is very difficult to do when lower ranked teams "Park the Bus", so we need attacking players that can breakdown a team that is "Parking the Bus".

[Statto]

"I'd say you're about 10% certain of that, not 99%."

No I am pretty certain. He's without question looked slower both in-terms of pace, but also with reactions etc. which has exposed us a lot given he bailed us out in 1-on-1 situations quite a few times in 17/18. The reason it's not 100% is that the Prem is a generally quicker league, so going back to "his level" might make him better off.

"that our younger players such as Bettinelli, Kebano and Kamara will have improved since 17/18, as most players do through their mid-20s."

Bettinelli's just had a major knee surgery, we have no idea how he's going to respond to it, Kebano was completely ignored by Jokanovic in the 2nd half of the 17/18 season- I genuinely don't think he's played 10 games since the start of 2018 and he even got dropped by DR Congo for AFCON. Not much improvement there. And Kamara's still... shall we say "raw" and likely to leave.

You've made my case for me by pointing out that Mcdonald has likely looked slower because the PL is a much faster league. He also plays in a position where many players, eg Parker, have functioned well into their mid-30s.

As for Betts and Kamara, since the start of our last Championship campaign, they've made over 100 appearances between them and I suspect most fans who go to games would agree that both improved in that period. Kamara, in particular, went from a squad player to consistent starter.

Ultimately, I'm not disputing that KMac's ability may be reducing with age, nor saying that Bettinelli and Kamara are suddenly world class players. My fundamental point is just that there's no reasonable basis to say older players like Mcdonald have got worse by a greater degree than younger players like Bettinelli and Kamara have got better. But if you want to keep claiming to be "99% certain" of that, I can't stop you.

It's a bit irrelevant anyway because I'd have Anguissa as our first choice DM, with KMac backup.

[Statto]

Under Parker we played 4-3-3 maybe twice? I can't remember if you're the person who said there's no difference between a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3, but if you are- yes, yes there is. And if we want to get the best out of Zambo (if he stays) he needs to be playing with a DM partner hence my wanting a 3-4-1-2 to also maximise the strengths of Mawson and Bryan to name two.

The essence of that debate, to the extent relevant to this thread, is the "difference" between the various permutations of 4-3-3 are, in practical terms, one or two players spending perhaps 25% of the game 10 yards further forwards or backwards. My argument would be that, whilst players may need some time to adapt to those nuances, it's not on anywhere near the same scale as the many months it would take the team to fully adapt to a fundamental change like playing a bsck 3 or back 5. And poor, disjointed performances through August, September and perhaps longer will lead to us having to write-off the whole season by Christmas (as we did this year).

[Statto]

And you didn't answer my point of asking why Kalas would want to sign for us after we binned him off last summer.

Again I don't see how you can claim to know that Kalas has got such a huge chip on his shoulder over us not being willing/able to meet Chelsea's asking price last summer that he never wants to play for us again. I'll leave it for others to decide whether to believe you. In any case, Kalas' availability isn't a prerequisite for the fundamental points I've made in this debate; I'd just be happy if we signed him.

[Statto]

In case you didn't notice, our tactics and Starting XI got 26 Points in 38 games last season. They might be worth a rethink. I want us to go back up (if we do) with a system and tactics already in place to give us a chance of succeeding in the Prem which a 3 at the back does because it's adaptable and gives your more defensive security. And as we proved very clearly last season, playing attacking 4-3-3 is a recipe for conceding 3+ goals a game in the Prem.

There are plenty of PL teams succeeding in both halves of the table with 4 at the back so clearly there's no problem with that. It follows that our problems must have been things like trying to integrate 11 new faces with no pre-season and having 3 different managers. Those are mistakes we can only fix by not repeating next time we go up. In the meantime, my focus would be promotion, and in case you didn't notice, the players (in fact, a slightly worse group of players) and tactics I've mentioned got 88 points from 46 games last time out.

[wheelerdeeler]

In case you didn't notice, our tactics and Starting XI got 26 Points in 38 games last season. They might be worth a rethink. I want us to go back up (if we do) with a system and tactics already in place to give us a chance of succeeding in the Prem which a 3 at the back does because it's adaptable and gives your more defensive security. And as we proved very clearly last season, playing attacking 4-3-3 is a recipe for conceding 3+ goals a game in the Prem.

There are plenty of PL teams succeeding in both halves of the table with 4 at the back so clearly there's no problem with that. It follows that our problems must have been things like trying to integrate 11 new faces with no pre-season and having 3 different managers. Those are mistakes we can only fix by not repeating next time we go up. In the meantime, my focus would be promotion, and in case you didn't notice, the players (in fact, a slightly worse group of players) and tactics I've mentioned got 88 points from 46 games last time out.

Different manager, and likely to be at least half of a different team. No Fredericks, Targett, Sessegnon (and in my opinion Mitrovic and Johansen) and McDonald, Ream and Odoi aren't likely to start. As I said above, what worked for one group of players might not work for this group- and I'd rather build the system around the group of our best players at the club rather than force them into a system just because it's worked before with a different set of players.

You've clearly got your opinion, so it's not worth debating it further- because we'll just go around in circles. Although I do find it interesting that you're saying this group of players is better than the 17/18 group, but also think a bad August/September means we're writing off a season by Christmas given the 17/18 group were what? 18th in November?

[Statto]

I'd rather build the system around the group of our best players at the club rather than force them into a system just because it's worked before with a different set of players.

A reasonable statement but the total opposite of everything you've proposed on this thread.

ALL our current players were bought with the intention of playing them in a 4-3-3, possession-based system, and ALL of them have 1-4 years' experience playing in that system for us. So continuing to play that system is not, by any stretch of the imagination, "forcing them into" it.

In contrast, you propose to ship out half of "our best players" and forcing the remainder to play a completely different, entirely novel system with a bunch of new players who are good on your computer game.

Out of interest, have you even checked the players on your wishlist are all playing your proposed system at their current clubs, or will it be just as unfamilar to them as it will be to those of our existing players who survive your overhaul?

[wheelerdeeler]

I'd rather build the system around the group of our best players at the club rather than force them into a system just because it's worked before with a different set of players.

A reasonable statement but the total opposite of everything you've proposed on this thread.

ALL our current players were bought with the intention of playing them in a 4-3-3, possession-based system, and ALL of them have 1-4 years' experience playing in that system for us. So continuing to play that system is not, by any stretch of the imagination, "forcing them into" it.

In contrast, you propose to ship out half of "our best players" and forcing the remainder to play a completely different, entirely novel system with a bunch of new players who are good on your computer game.

Out of interest, have you even checked the players on your wishlist are all playing your proposed system at their current clubs, or will it be just as unfamilar to them as it will be to those of our existing players who survive your overhaul?

Well firstly, it's not a completely novel system. In fact, I genuinely think we spent more time playing 3/5 at the back than attacking 4-3-3 last season. And we without a shadow of a doubt looked our best defensively when we switched to the 3 around Christmas time before Mawson knackered himself putting his boots on. I haven't just plucked it out of thin air.

I'm not proposing we ship out half of our best players, I'm looking at the players that are almost definitely leaving (Sessegnon, Seri, Mitrovic) on top of the ones who have already gone (Rico, Chambers, Babel- and if you want to compare to our promotion season Targett, Fredericks) and thinking how we do maximise the potential of the players we have at the club for next season? And they were bought to play 4-3-3, and then that plan was aborted by the end of September in case you didn't notice. Because it didn't work.

Alfie Mawson is the ideal central Centre-Back. Can play with both feet and he's good on the ball. We can build our defence around him. I want sort of hybrid full-backs at L/RCB- similar to Sheffield Utd. As such I think Le Marchand's ideal for a LCB and then Tomori coming in on loan would do the same job on the right.

Joe Bryan's not good enough defensively to play Left-Back in a four. I talk to Bristol City fans, and they were saying he wasn't good enough defensively for them even in the Championship. He without a shadow of a doubt cost us points getting caught cold at the back post from crosses. So push him further up the pitch, maximise his attacking potential which is the better side of his game and give him less defensive responsibility.

I think Christie's run his race with us, and I doubt many people will be sad to see him go. So I've looked for a "Fredericks profile" Right-Back, and I came up with Nazim Sangare and Falaye Sacko as my two options. Both ideal Wing-Backs in that they're absolutely rapid, and especially in Sangare's case contribute a lot in an attacking sense.

We need to get the best out of Zambo if he stays next season, because he can be a genuine difference maker for us. And how do we do that? Play him with a defensive-mid partner. I'm fairly certain either Jokanovic or Ranieri said as much in an interview- and his best performances by far for us were when Chambers was next to him. The only other out-and-out defensive mid we have is McDonald- who we've both agreed needs to be phased out over the course of next season- so I looked for someone else.

I initially wanted Romanczuk because he's a physical, mobile defensive-mid who's also a genuine leader, but he's signed a new deal with his Polish team. So I then look to Oscar Lewicki who in essence is a budget (not nearly as good) Kante. He'd do the "dirty work" and then pass it to either Zambo, Mawson or one of the Wing-Backs.

Cairney can't tackle to save his life, and from a defensive perspective he's a liability, so push him further up the pitch into a proper #10 role and let him affect the game in the final third.

If we do keep Mitrovic, I want someone playing up-front with him. To in essence, do the running for him. So I looked at a "pressing" Firmino type Striker, and I came up with Fredrik Gulbrandsen or Adrian Dalmau. Gulbrandsen's ideal to me because he's on a free, and he's played a lot in a front two next to Munas Dabbur for Salzburg.

The thing you've seemed to miss in this all is I'm not rigidly wanting us to play 3-4-1-2 for 46 games next season, but that's the foundation I want in place. Because we can play very attacking just by playing a Winger at L/RWB like Wolves did a few times with Adama Traore last season, ultra possession given we'll still have players who are very strong on the ball, but also counter attacking. It's adaptable, which Jokanovic's 4-3-3 wasn't to our detriment. When Cairney inevitably gets injured we can go 3-4-3, and then when we go behind in games we take off say Le Marchand for Ayite, Gulbrandsen can play on the wing and we're in a 4-3-3.

I also find it funny how an "overhaul" in your book is signing 5 players (Tomori, Sangare, Lewicki, Geipl, Gulbrandsen- and Geipl could easily be Cisse) (a Mitrovic replacement bringing it up to 6) when we've lost Rico, Nordtveit, Fosu-Mensah, Chambers, Schurrle, Vietto and Markovic and we're almost definitely losing Seri and Sessegnon. That's not even touching some of the 50/50 ones like Mitrovic, Zambo, Kamara Johansen etc.

And as far as "computer games" go- no chance. Especially since the Watford game I've looked into these signings a lot in preparation for my transfers blog that I do every year based on my general football knowledge given I watch all Football obsessively. And I've raised some very good names without wanting to toot my own horn too much. Fabian Schar last summer, Barry Douglas before he signed for Wolves and Moussa Marega two years ago who's now supposedly worth 30m to name a couple.

As I said though, you clearly have your opinion- and it's pointless debating systems really until we know what Parker wants to play which we'll get indications of in Pre-Season and in the signings we make. So there's not much point going further with this.

[MikeW]

With the chuckle brothers in charge of recruitment I have no faith whatsoever.  And I base this on evidence in front of my very eyes.  To you .....

[The Rational Fan]

I'd rather build the system around the group of our best players at the club rather than force them into a system just because it's worked before with a different set of players.

A reasonable statement but the total opposite of everything you've proposed on this thread.

ALL our current players were bought with the intention of playing them in a 4-3-3, possession-based system, and ALL of them have 1-4 years' experience playing in that system for us. So continuing to play that system is not, by any stretch of the imagination, "forcing them into" it.

In contrast, you propose to ship out half of "our best players" and forcing the remainder to play a completely different, entirely novel system with a bunch of new players who are good on your computer game.

Out of interest, have you even checked the players on your wishlist are all playing your proposed system at their current clubs, or will it be just as unfamilar to them as it will be to those of our existing players who survive your overhaul?

Well firstly, it's not a completely novel system. In fact, I genuinely think we spent more time playing 3/5 at the back than attacking 4-3-3 last season. And we without a shadow of a doubt looked our best defensively when we switched to the 3 around Christmas time before Mawson knackered himself putting his boots on. I haven't just plucked it out of thin air.

I'm not proposing we ship out half of our best players, I'm looking at the players that are almost definitely leaving (Sessegnon, Seri, Mitrovic) on top of the ones who have already gone (Rico, Chambers, Babel- and if you want to compare to our promotion season Targett, Fredericks) and thinking how we do maximise the potential of the players we have at the club for next season? And they were bought to play 4-3-3, and then that plan was aborted by the end of September in case you didn't notice. Because it didn't work.

Alfie Mawson is the ideal central Centre-Back. Can play with both feet and he's good on the ball. We can build our defence around him. I want sort of hybrid full-backs at L/RCB- similar to Sheffield Utd. As such I think Le Marchand's ideal for a LCB and then Tomori coming in on loan would do the same job on the right.

Joe Bryan's not good enough defensively to play Left-Back in a four. I talk to Bristol City fans, and they were saying he wasn't good enough defensively for them even in the Championship. He without a shadow of a doubt cost us points getting caught cold at the back post from crosses. So push him further up the pitch, maximise his attacking potential which is the better side of his game and give him less defensive responsibility.

I think Christie's run his race with us, and I doubt many people will be sad to see him go. So I've looked for a "Fredericks profile" Right-Back, and I came up with Nazim Sangare and Falaye Sacko as my two options. Both ideal Wing-Backs in that they're absolutely rapid, and especially in Sangare's case contribute a lot in an attacking sense.

We need to get the best out of Zambo if he stays next season, because he can be a genuine difference maker for us. And how do we do that? Play him with a defensive-mid partner. I'm fairly certain either Jokanovic or Ranieri said as much in an interview- and his best performances by far for us were when Chambers was next to him. The only other out-and-out defensive mid we have is McDonald- who we've both agreed needs to be phased out over the course of next season- so I looked for someone else.

I initially wanted Romanczuk because he's a physical, mobile defensive-mid who's also a genuine leader, but he's signed a new deal with his Polish team. So I then look to Oscar Lewicki who in essence is a budget (not nearly as good) Kante. He'd do the "dirty work" and then pass it to either Zambo, Mawson or one of the Wing-Backs.

Cairney can't tackle to save his life, and from a defensive perspective he's a liability, so push him further up the pitch into a proper #10 role and let him affect the game in the final third.

If we do keep Mitrovic, I want someone playing up-front with him. To in essence, do the running for him. So I looked at a "pressing" Firmino type Striker, and I came up with Fredrik Gulbrandsen or Adrian Dalmau. Gulbrandsen's ideal to me because he's on a free, and he's played a lot in a front two next to Munas Dabbur for Salzburg.

The thing you've seemed to miss in this all is I'm not rigidly wanting us to play 3-4-1-2 for 46 games next season, but that's the foundation I want in place. Because we can play very attacking just by playing a Winger at L/RWB like Wolves did a few times with Adama Traore last season, ultra possession given we'll still have players who are very strong on the ball, but also counter attacking. It's adaptable, which Jokanovic's 4-3-3 wasn't to our detriment. When Cairney inevitably gets injured we can go 3-4-3, and then when we go behind in games we take off say Le Marchand for Ayite, Gulbrandsen can play on the wing and we're in a 4-3-3.

I also find it funny how an "overhaul" in your book is signing 5 players (Tomori, Sangare, Lewicki, Geipl, Gulbrandsen- and Geipl could easily be Cisse) (a Mitrovic replacement bringing it up to 6) when we've lost Rico, Nordtveit, Fosu-Mensah, Chambers, Schurrle, Vietto and Markovic and we're almost definitely losing Seri and Sessegnon. That's not even touching some of the 50/50 ones like Mitrovic, Zambo, Kamara Johansen etc.

And as far as "computer games" go- no chance. Especially since the Watford game I've looked into these signings a lot in preparation for my transfers blog that I do every year based on my general football knowledge given I watch all Football obsessively. And I've raised some very good names without wanting to toot my own horn too much. Fabian Schar last summer, Barry Douglas before he signed for Wolves and Moussa Marega two years ago who's now supposedly worth 30m to name a couple.

As I said though, you clearly have your opinion- and it's pointless debating systems really until we know what Parker wants to play which we'll get indications of in Pre-Season and in the signings we make. So there's not much point going further with this.

I think both of you are correct, Statto plan should be Plan A, but unlike last season we need a decent enough squad for a Plan B (maybe like wheelerdeeler). We definitely should be buying enough first team players to play a 433, 4231, 343, 442, 4141 and 532 if required. Scott Parker should have enough players that he can play three centre backs and/or two centre forwards, therefore buying an extra CB (Kalas) and CF Gayle would be wise.

I would point out that almost every formation around has been successful, the last thing this team needs is a complete overhaul. We have beaten all six of the bottom teams in the premier league with players like Christie, Odoi and Ream, while it would be good to see a plan to move them to the bench during next season, it would be a huge mistake to discard them and start again.  We have a spine of Betts, MLM, Ream, KMac, Anguissa, Cairney and Mitro with a great subs with Mawson, Johansen, and Seri, we just need to add a bunch of wide players plus some more reserves (like Kalas).

[TC's Sporran]

I agree cairney cant/wont tackle and I too would like to see him further up the pitch but ....
I remember in the championship him coming deep to get the ball and after two or three passes he would find himself further up the field and  back on the ball with up to 4 or sometimes 6 Fulham players making dangerous runs for him too pass to

in the prem hardly anyone made the runs off the ball like in the championship apart from v the lesser teams.

tc can be a matchwinner but is much more effective if we have players making dangerous runs

the more I look at our play back then the more I realise losing fredericks was a massive blow

[The Rational Fan]

I agree cairney cant/wont tackle and I too would like to see him further up the pitch but ....
I remember in the championship him coming deep to get the ball and after two or three passes he would find himself further up the field and  back on the ball with up to 4 or sometimes 6 Fulham players making dangerous runs for him too pass to

in the prem hardly anyone made the runs off the ball like in the championship apart from v the lesser teams.

tc can be a matchwinner but is much more effective if we have players making dangerous runs

the more I look at our play back then the more I realise losing fredericks was a massive blow

Ryan Fredricks would have not performed well in the premier league with the best attackers, having  Schullre in front of him and Odoi to the centre of him.