Tosin

[Count Flapula]

Hmmm, even our defence was bottom 8 quality last year and that was with Aerola, Anderson and DM Reed coming 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the POTS vote. So for Tosin I'm not sure being one of the weakest members of one of the weakest defences constitutes "proving his chops". On the rare occasions that a relegated club's player is deemed to be PL quality and worth £20m+ it's almost invariably where that player was the best in the team.

By your own calcs, he was our second best defender in a team that finished 12th out of 20 in the league for number of goals conceded ("bottom 8" sounds better for your take on things, granted).

From game 10 onwards (when we settled on our best defence and defensive system), we let in 34 in 28 games - that is not shipping goals at an alarming rate by standards of any teams outside of the top 4. He played in pretty much every game during that period so he played a large part in that stat. He certainly was not highlighted by anyone as being "carried" in the Prem.

He also received positive match ratings and reviews for his own repformances during those 28 games on a regular and fairly consistent basis, even if we did not always pick up the results.

How is that "one of the weakest defenders" in our team?

So, individually as a defender over a 28-game period I'd say the facts, stats and reviews show he's proven himself to be a PL quality defender and worth more than £15m. As do my eyes and plenty of other Fulham supporters who I know/ come on here, never mind the neutrals who share that opinion.

"12th out of 20" may sound better for your take on things but of course 13th would be more accurate.

And we don't know he was rated our 2nd best defender in the POTS voting. Tete, Aina and/or Robinson may have come ahead of him too. All we know is he had better players in front of him, behind him, and alongside him.

You're quite right that he's rated by plenty of Fulham supporters. Although I think that somewhat trumped by the fact that no other club was prepared to pay his £10m release fee.

12th... 13th... still mid table Premier league standards in terms of Defence.

Wherever he may have come in the POTS is irrelevant to the 2 main points being debated:

- Tosin being prem quality
- Tosin being worth to us more than £15m or not

I'm saying the general consensus (his individual match ratings, reviews, stats of GOALS CONCEDED, as well as general majority opinion) points to him being Prem quality and worth more than £15m. Just because no one picked him up during that specific (and relatively narrow window) doesn't mean anything regards his monetary value to us nor his ability - all that does is reflect the current financial environment in football caused by COVID.

[Blawarmy]

Hmmm, even our defence was bottom 8 quality last year and that was with Aerola, Anderson and DM Reed coming 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the POTS vote. So for Tosin I'm not sure being one of the weakest members of one of the weakest defences constitutes "proving his chops". On the rare occasions that a relegated club's player is deemed to be PL quality and worth £20m+ it's almost invariably where that player was the best in the team.

He has a new manager to work with now. People moaned that Parker didn't improve anyone other than Reed, so who knows, Mr Silva and team might turn him into the next Virgil Van Dijk. Or maybe Dick, but hopefully not.

[The Old Count]

It's purile I know but I'm disappointed that there are no 'Tosin off' jokes on this thread.

[Statto]

12th... 13th... still mid table Premier league standards in terms of Defence.

Wherever he may have come in the POTS is irrelevant to the 2 main points being debated:

- Tosin being prem quality
- Tosin being worth to us more than £15m or not

I'm saying the general consensus (his individual match ratings, reviews, stats of GOALS CONCEDED, as well as general majority opinion) points to him being Prem quality and worth more than £15m. Just because no one picked him up during that specific (and relatively narrow window) doesn't mean anything regards his monetary value to us nor his ability - all that does is reflect the current financial environment in football caused by COVID.

Well I'm not sure you can logically say the fans' POTS vote is irrelevant... and then cite "majority opinion" as evidence.

In any case looking at match ratings/stats on WhoScored yields a similar result. They have him ranked below Areola, Anderson and Robinson in the back 5.

Also not sure how what other clubs are prepared to pay for him can be irrelevant to his value. They are one and the same. If no one was prepared to buy him for £10m then ipso facto he isn't worth £10m. Really any discussion about his value should end there.

All that said, I don't want to continue this to the extent it sounds like I'm slagging him off. I don't think he's inherently better than Hector, Kongolo or Mawson, but given the latter two are made of glass, I expect Tosin to be in the starting XI this season and think he's at least solid Championship top 6 quality. He's also the youngest so the most likely to improve.

[sunburywhite]

It's purile I know but I'm disappointed that there are no 'Tosin off' jokes on this thread.

You had better ask Master Bateman

[Twig]

It's purile I know but I'm disappointed that there are no 'Tosin off' jokes on this thread.

Well I suppose there is now and you're right it's puerile.

[Count Flapula]

12th... 13th... still mid table Premier league standards in terms of Defence.

Wherever he may have come in the POTS is irrelevant to the 2 main points being debated:

- Tosin being prem quality
- Tosin being worth to us more than £15m or not

I'm saying the general consensus (his individual match ratings, reviews, stats of GOALS CONCEDED, as well as general majority opinion) points to him being Prem quality and worth more than £15m. Just because no one picked him up during that specific (and relatively narrow window) doesn't mean anything regards his monetary value to us nor his ability - all that does is reflect the current financial environment in football caused by COVID.

Well I'm not sure you can logically say the fans' POTS vote is irrelevant... and then cite "majority opinion" as evidence.

In any case looking at match ratings/stats on WhoScored yields a similar result. They have him ranked below Areola, Anderson and Robinson in the back 5.

Also not sure how what other clubs are prepared to pay for him can be irrelevant to his value. They are one and the same. If no one was prepared to buy him for £10m then ipso facto he isn't worth £10m. Really any discussion about his value should end there.

All that said, I don't want to continue this to the extent it sounds like I'm slagging him off. I don't think he's inherently better than Hector, Kongolo or Mawson, but given the latter two are made of glass, I expect Tosin to be in the starting XI this season and think he's at least solid Championship top 6 quality. He's also the youngest so the most likely to improve.

You can absolutely do that as we are assessing Tosin's ability as an inidividual and whether he's PL quality. The evidence points him being so.

He ranked behind Areola (definite PL and international quality), Andersson (definite PL and international quality) and Robinson (previously AC Milan bound and international quality)? So that means he;s not PL quality? Of course it doesn't.

Your ipso facto £10m arguement is a massive red herring and you know it. No one bid for Messi so is he worth nothing? Come on, you can do better than that.

Again, we are talking about his monetary value TO US - i.e. the threshold at what we should consider selling him at. Given he has proven he can perform in the Prem (he has proven it) and fees other players have gone for in boeadly similar brackets, my opinion  - and seems most others - he is worth more than £15m

[Statto]

You can absolutely do that as we are assessing Tosin's ability as an inidividual and whether he's PL quality. The evidence points him being so.

"The evidence"... excluding stats/match ratings/fan votes/popular opinion which are inconclusive as discussed. Happy to hear more evidence if you have any. 

He ranked behind Areola (definite PL and international quality), Andersson (definite PL and international quality) and Robinson (previously AC Milan bound and international quality)? So that means he;s not PL quality? Of course it doesn't.

Robinson being PL quality is also highly questionnable FWIW... but in any case, the fact that Tosin was surrounded by "definite PL quality" players last year reinforces my suggestion that his personal impact on our decent (albeit still not brilliant) defensive record was probably minimal.

Your ipso facto £10m arguement is a massive red herring and you know it. No one bid for Messi so is he worth nothing? Come on, you can do better than that.

Again, we are talking about his monetary value TO US - i.e. the threshold at what we should consider selling him at. Given he has proven he can perform in the Prem (he has proven it) and fees other players have gone for in boeadly similar brackets, my opinion  - and seems most others - he is worth more than £15m

I'm quite sure the reasons for Messi not moving were prohibitive wages and/or him actually wanting to stay at Barcelona, neither of which would have applied to Tosin.

As to value "to us", well that's a pretty meaningless concept. I thought we were debating his objective market value. You can of course make up whatever other unsubstantiated metric you want, just like I can say Mitrovic is worth £100m "to us" because that's what I feel in my head. Not sure it counts for much though. 

Think we've exhausted this discussion now so shall leave it there.

[Count Flapula]

You can absolutely do that as we are assessing Tosin's ability as an inidividual and whether he's PL quality. The evidence points him being so.

"The evidence"... excluding stats/match ratings/fan votes/popular opinion which are inconclusive as discussed. Happy to hear more evidence if you have any. 

He ranked behind Areola (definite PL and international quality), Andersson (definite PL and international quality) and Robinson (previously AC Milan bound and international quality)? So that means he;s not PL quality? Of course it doesn't.

Robinson being PL quality is also highly questionnable FWIW... but in any case, the fact that Tosin was surrounded by "definite PL quality" players last year reinforces my suggestion that his personal impact on our decent (albeit still not brilliant) defensive record was probably minimal.

Your ipso facto £10m arguement is a massive red herring and you know it. No one bid for Messi so is he worth nothing? Come on, you can do better than that.

Again, we are talking about his monetary value TO US - i.e. the threshold at what we should consider selling him at. Given he has proven he can perform in the Prem (he has proven it) and fees other players have gone for in boeadly similar brackets, my opinion  - and seems most others - he is worth more than £15m

I'm quite sure the reasons for Messi not moving were prohibitive wages and/or him actually wanting to stay at Barcelona, neither of which would have applied to Tosin.

As to value "to us", well that's a pretty meaningless concept. I thought we were debating his objective market value. You can of course make up whatever other unsubstantiated metric you want, just like I can say Mitrovic is worth £100m "to us" because that's what I feel in my head. Not sure it counts for much though. 

Think we've exhausted this discussion now so shall leave it there.

1. - I think the ratings of thousands of people and opinions of the majority of multiple professional football pundits  over that 28-game period will do fine to back up my view over yours thanks. You can get semantic over the use of the word "evidence" but this is a football forum, not a court of law, so I stand by all of my "evidence" to support my view.

2 - I refute that him playing with other good defenders does absolutely nothing to reinforce your suggestion his contribution was minimal. Again - please refer to all other sources of information and feedback on his performances to show that he played a positive part in us having a respctable, premier league standard defence.

3 - Point being no one (reportedly) bid for Messi - whatever the reason  (FWIW the fact he said openly and publicly he wants to leave Barca and then accepted a 50% pay cut to stay reinforces the reports no one bid for him rather than he primarily wanted to stay) - doesn't mean he is worth less than free, same way no one bidding £10m on Tosin within a one-month period doesn't mean he is worth less than £10m.

How can his value to us be a meaningless concept? We were debating what the threshold figure should be whereby we would be content in Fulham selling him. Based on the widely held opinion that he did well at Prem level / what others in a similar bracket ability/potential/age/contract length wise went for, we should old out for more than £15m or keep him because based on last season's performances/the fragility of Mawson and Kongolo, he is our best CB.

[Statto]

It's purile I know but I'm disappointed that there are no 'Tosin off' jokes on this thread.

You had better ask Master Bateman

Lol

[Whitesideup]

Tosin not better than Mawson ! I disagree. Don't need stats  .. I have eyes.

[itombomb]

Palace just bought Guehi for a £20m deal all in when he hasn't performed at PL level.

That is basically the minimum price for Toisin.

[Twig]

Tosin not better than Mawson ! I disagree. Don't need stats  .. I have eyes.

Agreed, his form did slip away a bit towards the end of the season but then so did the entire team's. I saw enough to rate him as a Prem standard defender and a clear starting option for us in the Championship.

[rebel]

If he could improve his heading ability 'offensively', could easily get 9 / 10 goals each season, has the ability, similar to Soucek. 

[WestSussexWhite]

 081.gif

Tosin not better than Mawson ! I disagree. Don't need stats  .. I have eyes.

Agreed, his form did slip away a bit towards the end of the season but then so did the entire team's. I saw enough to rate him as a Prem standard defender and a clear starting option for us in the Championship.

Let's not forget, he was playing the wrong side too a lot of last season. He prefers playing RCB and was playing LCB. Which makes a massive difference. Mawson wasn't the same player when he plays RCB rather than his preferred LCB position

[Jules]

081.gif

Tosin not better than Mawson ! I disagree. Don't need stats  .. I have eyes.

Agreed, his form did slip away a bit towards the end of the season but then so did the entire team's. I saw enough to rate him as a Prem standard defender and a clear starting option for us in the Championship.

Let's not forget, he was playing the wrong side too a lot of last season. He prefers playing RCB and was playing LCB. Which makes a massive difference. Mawson wasn't the same player when he plays RCB rather than his preferred LCB position

I agree, and if (and it's a big IF) Mawson can stay fit, I would play him LCB and Tosin RCB as our first choice pairing. I would keep Ream and Hector as reserves for these two positions.

[Count Flapula]

Tosin not better than Mawson ! I disagree. Don't need stats  .. I have eyes.

I don't disagree that the Mawson of 3.5 seasons ago pre-serious kneee injury was better - I had really high hopes for him when we signed him. It's just a shame that his knee seems determined to fall off at the faintest touch. He has been absolutely blighted since 2018 now - while I genuinely hope he comes good for us, the longer the knee issues go on, the chances of him reaching anywhere near his potential sadly diminish. Based on that alone, i'd say Tosin is by far the better prospect of going on to play regular top flight football. 

Would be absolutely delighted if Mawson could turn it around though as there is a real player in there beneath the wobbly knees.

[Count Flapula]

I agree, and if (and it's a big IF) Mawson can stay fit, I would play him LCB and Tosin RCB as our first choice pairing.

Fully agree this would be ideal IF Mawson fit. Hector and Ream at Champ level are class options too so we are well stacked in this area.

[WestSussexWhite]

I agree, and if (and it's a big IF) Mawson can stay fit, I would play him LCB and Tosin RCB as our first choice pairing.

Fully agree this would be ideal IF Mawson fit. Hector and Ream at Champ level are class options too so we are well stacked in this area.

Let's not forget Kongolo, who I would argue is possibly the best CB we've got when fit!

[Count Flapula]

I agree, and if (and it's a big IF) Mawson can stay fit, I would play him LCB and Tosin RCB as our first choice pairing.

Fully agree this would be ideal IF Mawson fit. Hector and Ream at Champ level are class options too so we are well stacked in this area.

Let's not forget Kongolo, who I would argue is possibly the best CB we've got when fit!

Completely forgot about Kongolo for a second! We must have by far the best and deepest stack of CBs in the Champ. IF Mawson and Kongolo stay fit Silva will have a major headache when it comes to selecting the best pair (can't get a bigger IF than that mind you). Will be hugely interesting to see who gets the nod.