Moussa Dembélé

[RidgeRider]

I want to preface my question to the board by mentioning I do not heap our lack of results on this player but as I read the thread about Ruiz needing 7 months to come good, I couldn't help wonder what exactly has Moussa brought to our team that has Jol singing his praises?

To my untrained eye, the kids is nearly masterful with the ball at his feet. He has improved this year over last in terms of keeping possession of the ball in and around the box and other areas of the pitch, while he is closed down upon by 2 to 3 defenders. Last year he would eventually get pushed off the ball but this year he seems a little stronger in his play.

Recently he also seems to be willing to take a few shots.

So, how exactly does this help us? His escapability is useful to keep the attack going but it does allow for more defenders to get into position. He doesn't seem to be a good creator, though he has helped in a few situations, and he is not a goal scorer, he also doesn't have a cross to speak of but is really more of a winger in the mold of Dempsey.

So I ask the question that has been asked before, what does he bring us besides amazing skills at manuevering the ball through traffic and most of the time putting in a good shift? What am I missing?

I like the kid, truly, but fail to see, for whatever reason, what everyone else see's that reaps him praises.....like Jol does.

[sipwell]

Mr. RR, let's talk again after you visited Craven Cottage. :)

He is very strong OFF the ball as well and he attracts defenders. It is not always shown on camera (which follows the ball). He runs smart and is defensively very strong!

[epsomraver]

While he has three on him that should mean two Fulham players are free,

[RidgeRider]

Mr. RR, let's talk again after you visited Craven Cottage. :)

He is very strong OFF the ball as well and he attracts defenders. It is not always shown on camera (which follows the ball). He runs smart and is defensively very strong!

Ok, I am going to the Odense match and Bolton so I will be watching him more closely. Good point you make. It IS hard or impossible in most cases to see, on TV, what is going on in other parts of the pitch so your point is noted. I tend to let my eyes follow the ball.

[RidgeRider]

While he has three on him that should mean two Fulham players are free,

Fair point. I just don't see him getting the ball to the open player that often.....however I admit my memory may be sketchy in this regard.

[MOR :]

I personally think he has everything to make a fantastic player...but there's still one thing missing from his game...GOALS.
Once he starts knocking them in it'll be £30 million please Mr Redknapp...

[McBridefan1]

In 7 or 8 months he is going to be a super star... if not then just wait longer...

[Jack Fulham]

Jol big's Moussa up every week, I think he's doing this to try and draw in bidders to be honest. I think someone said on TIFF, Dembele's inconsistency is the Premier League's best kept secret. Lovely player to watch though but still has a lot to prove at this level.

[Rambling_Syd_Rumpo]

space,pure and simple,when he has the ball atleast a couple defenders are needed to try to stop him that makes space for a Dempsey/Murphy/Sidwell to make the killer pass.When he hasn't got the ball he is pulling defenders all over the place because if he gets the ball he can make that killer pass to put Dempsey/Murphy/Sidwel through. His running off the ball is as important to how the team play as his running with the ball is.He's got a decent shot when he uses it aswell :clap_hands:

[Burt]

Hmm...

Easy one this.

Are we a better side with him in the team or not?

In, of course.

Agree he needs to develop his end product, but he'll get there. And hopefully we will be able to hold on to him when he does.

[ImperialWhite]

Mr. RR, let's talk again after you visited Craven Cottage. :)

He is very strong OFF the ball as well and he attracts defenders. It is not always shown on camera (which follows the ball). He runs smart and is defensively very strong!

Ok, I am going to the Odense match and Bolton so I will be watching him more closely. Good point you make. It IS hard or impossible in most cases to see, on TV, what is going on in other parts of the pitch so your point is noted. I tend to let my eyes follow the ball.

Cool, are you planning on meeting any FOFers when you're here?

...

Incidentally, you're completely wrong!  :005:

As people are saying, if a ball sticks to a player under pressure it means other players are free for off the ball stuff. It helps us to keep possession, something our game is based on (not being fast or particularly strong). He also works extremely hard defensively off the ball.

If Moussa was scoring every week in addition to all of this, you can triple his value (at least) and he'd be playing for a Champions League side.

[MrFantastic]

There are those players who play well off the ball, like covering players well, making spaces for other players on a team to get the ball and things like that and Dembele does this

[RidgeRider]

Mr. RR, let's talk again after you visited Craven Cottage. :)

He is very strong OFF the ball as well and he attracts defenders. It is not always shown on camera (which follows the ball). He runs smart and is defensively very strong!

Ok, I am going to the Odense match and Bolton so I will be watching him more closely. Good point you make. It IS hard or impossible in most cases to see, on TV, what is going on in other parts of the pitch so your point is noted. I tend to let my eyes follow the ball.

Cool, are you planning on meeting any FOFers when you're here?

...

Incidentally, you're completely wrong!  :005:

As people are saying, if a ball sticks to a player under pressure it means other players are free for off the ball stuff. It helps us to keep possession, something our game is based on (not being fast or particularly strong). He also works extremely hard defensively off the ball.

If Moussa was scoring every week in addition to all of this, you can triple his value (at least) and he'd be playing for a Champions League side.

I do plan on meeting some of the FoFers even if I have to hunt them down. :) So that will be cool. Saturday for sure I will swing by one of the pubs and Wednesday possible. Depends on jet lag as I will be flying in from San Francisco but I am an early riser anyway so maybe it won't be so bad and it is a direct flight.

[richie17]

The other thing is that some players you could take out of our team and put them into, say, Arsenal's, and it'd look wrong because they wouldn't be able to compete.  Dembele has such a strong skills base that he could, presumably, step up a level without too much trouble.  And with better players around him a lot of his approach work would be more effective, both because he'd receive the ball in more space and because he'd have more options (which sometimes seems to be the problem).

Despite that, what everyone else says: very good defensively, superb in keeping the ball and (theoretically) freeing up space for others (theoretically because our movement off the ball and width under Jol has been dire).  Top, top player and will be somewhere impressive soon.  Champions League level, maybe even late rounds Champions League.

[NorthernWhite]

Despite that, what everyone else says: very good defensively, superb in keeping the ball and (theoretically) freeing up space for others (theoretically because our movement off the ball and width under Jol has been dire).  Top, top player and will be somewhere impressive soon.  Champions League level, maybe even late rounds Champions League.
[/quote]

Interesting you mention the off the ball movement, it's been driving me mad how dire that's been this season.

Is it tactics, the age of the players now or both?

[richie17]

my theory is that the full-backs aren't doing their bit. If you think about it, last year our wingers were inverted, we had a centre-forward and a player off them, and two midfielders doing what they do now.  The difference is that since Hodgson took over we've had relatively adventurous full-backs, giving us the width we need to stretch play a bit.  Now we just seem to funnel everything up the middle where there's no space and no-where to turn.  This slows down play and it's hard for players to then make useful runs in isolation and it gets really static. 

Secondly, a feature of Hodgson's attacking play was lots of pre-rehearsed moves that were designed to open up space and create opportunities. We were excellent at this at home.  Now it all seems a bit off the cuff, less predictable but less efficient.

[MJG]

my theory is that the full-backs aren't doing their bit. If you think about it, last year our wingers were inverted, we had a centre-forward and a player off them, and two midfielders doing what they do now.  The difference is that since Hodgson took over we've had relatively adventurous full-backs, giving us the width we need to stretch play a bit.  Now we just seem to funnel everything up the middle where there's no space and no-where to turn.  This slows down play and it's hard for players to then make useful runs in isolation and it gets really static. 

Secondly, a feature of Hodgson's attacking play was lots of pre-rehearsed moves that were designed to open up space and create opportunities. We were excellent at this at home.  Now it all seems a bit off the cuff, less predictable but less efficient.

i'm coming round to the full backs are not getting forward theroy as well. For whatever reason I found myself watching a lot of footie this weekend and a feature in the vast majority of games was full backs getting into the box. Something our players just cant do all through a gaame.

Of course the other thing we lack is PACE.

[AlFayedsChequebook]

my theory is that the full-backs aren't doing their bit. If you think about it, last year our wingers were inverted, we had a centre-forward and a player off them, and two midfielders doing what they do now.  The difference is that since Hodgson took over we've had relatively adventurous full-backs, giving us the width we need to stretch play a bit.  Now we just seem to funnel everything up the middle where there's no space and no-where to turn.  This slows down play and it's hard for players to then make useful runs in isolation and it gets really static. 

Secondly, a feature of Hodgson's attacking play was lots of pre-rehearsed moves that were designed to open up space and create opportunities. We were excellent at this at home.  Now it all seems a bit off the cuff, less predictable but less efficient.

i'm coming round to the full backs are not getting forward theroy as well. For whatever reason I found myself watching a lot of footie this weekend and a feature in the vast majority of games was full backs getting into the box. Something our players just cant do all through a gaame.

Of course the other thing we lack is PACE.

I think the pace argument is so over-egged on here. We have not had pace since Hodgson took over, and it has been one of the most successful periods ever at the club.

[BR]

my theory is that the full-backs aren't doing their bit.

I agree - but I would go as far to say as most of the team is too static off the ball.  Moussa is great at attracting defenders, but that's only helpful as long as people move into that space.  I think this is part of the reason that he doesn't pass to players in space as often as you might expect for a player of his class.  The fullbacks are part of the problem in that more often than not, the space tends to be out wide, but I think it's also in part down to the central midfield not moving into space.

Keep an eye out tonight, but also even against the more average teams in the premiership, you could build a motorway in the gap between the front two and the midfield.  

For me, this is the one advantage of Andy Johnson. Say whatever you want about his output, but he's one of the few players in our squad that seems willing to move without the ball.  I also think that's why we've seen a lot more of Hangeland running with the ball from deep positions - central midfield is static and easily closed down, whilst Moussa, AJ and Bobby all are decent at moving defenders in different ways - causing the space to be between the midfield and the front 2 which Hangeland tries to run into.  

Overall, I think what we're seeing is a group of players of a certain age bracket that prefer economy of movement (smart movement, leveraging their experience) being asked to play a system requiring more fluidity off the ball.  Hodgson set up the core of our team to play with shape and limited off the ball movement, which is fine, but at the moment we seem to be stuck between two different worlds.

[ClarksOriginal]

my theory is that the full-backs aren't doing their bit.

Keep an eye out tonight, but also even against the more average teams in the premiership, you could build a motorway in the gap between the front two and the midfield. 

I think this is definitely a problem. The gap between our front two and the midfield and also the defence means we are too easy to pass and run through, teams that play well between the lines will slaughter us.

I think a tactic being used by Athletic Bilbao, were the whole team presses from the front as one unit over 25 meters would work for us, albeit they are trained hard and have extraoridnary work rate. Bilbao retain the ball well when they have it, giving themselves a rest and are direct, yet short with their passes. Very very effective, and even the biggest teams i.e Barca, Real & PSG have failed to reak Bilbao down.