Scotland

[Logicalman]

The thing with this is that if there is a narrow yes majority on even a 90% turnout, that is still less than half the population that have voted in favour and all those Scots living in England and elsewhere (who would most likely vote NO) have been denied a vote anyway! I can't see anything more than a continuous campaign to vote to get back in within 10 years as surely there will be a negative economic impact when devolved UK government activities return to England as FFC73 points out. Can only see it turning out messy for Scotland - lets face it, they would have done an Iceland 6 years ago had they had had to bail out RBS instead of Westminster doing it!

See the point, though there is an argument that if those that are living elsewhere wish to vote, then they should live back in the country and say their peace. Not saying its my argument, but I don't live in the UK any longer and so I don't vote, and honestly wouldn't wish to, that's why I don't live there any longer.

you don't live here cos you don't want to vote ;-)

Ha ha, I see what I wrote now - it did sound quite logical in my head!!!   1500.gif

No, what I meant is that I moved away and am happy living abroad as it offers more opportunities, and from my pov, voting in the UK is a waste anyways. By that same measure, as I accept I cannot now cast a vote in the UK because I chose to live abroad, the same applies to those that don't wish to reside in Scotland, for the various reasons that abound.

[fulhamben]

The thing with this is that if there is a narrow yes majority on even a 90% turnout, that is still less than half the population that have voted in favour and all those Scots living in England and elsewhere (who would most likely vote NO) have been denied a vote anyway! I can't see anything more than a continuous campaign to vote to get back in within 10 years as surely there will be a negative economic impact when devolved UK government activities return to England as FFC73 points out. Can only see it turning out messy for Scotland - lets face it, they would have done an Iceland 6 years ago had they had had to bail out RBS instead of Westminster doing it!

See the point, though there is an argument that if those that are living elsewhere wish to vote, then they should live back in the country and say their peace. Not saying its my argument, but I don't live in the UK any longer and so I don't vote, and honestly wouldn't wish to, that's why I don't live there any longer.

you don't live here cos you don't want to vote ;-)

Ha ha, I see what I wrote now - it did sound quite logical in my head!!!   1500.gif

No, what I meant is that I moved away and am happy living abroad as it offers more opportunities, and from my pov, voting in the UK is a waste anyways. By that same measure, as I accept I cannot now cast a vote in the UK because I chose to live abroad, the same applies to those that don't wish to reside in Scotland, for the various reasons that abound.

yes totally agree. Voting should be for the country you permantly reside in.

[YankeeJim]

What happened to the no politics rule?
Seems to be rather subjectively applied.  063.gif

[fulhamben]

What happened to the no politics rule?
Seems to be rather subjectively applied.  063.gif

this is a major subject here, one that you can't avoid, especially on telly.

[crazycottager]

What have you got against the toothless? Do you know the prices the  mostly privatised dental services charge now? Though, in Scotland that probably still have NHS dentists, given the culture of greater equality and fairness than in England there- and their health system still seems to be pretty good.

Well, I noticed the difference when I moved  back to England from Glasgow - where my wife is from-ie it's a lot worse here if you're ill or old or disabled.

There are rich and poor areas in the west of Scotland just like anywhere else, though Glasgow does have some of the worst poverty and unemployment in Europe, as well as well off fashionable areas.

his name is win-dup, aka troll, don't let him get to you.

[Logicalman]

What happened to the no politics rule?
Seems to be rather subjectively applied.  063.gif

this is a major subject here, one that you can't avoid, especially on telly.

I think we've done really well to avoid the party politics, this is purely about Scotland itself, and whether what they expect from a split is a reality, or just pie-in-the-sky idealism, with a little of why some don't vote in the referendum, of course. Congrats to everyone in avoiding the dreaded locking mechanism of abuse.

[NogoodBoyo]

Without bloodshed in the gabardene swinemass, I just don't understand why people keep trying to block this type of thread on the forum.  This has been one of the most interesting, intelligent, largely unemotional debates I have seen on here for a month of bloody Sundays.  And frankly, the footie threads are repetitive, predictable and increasingly infrequent.
Keep the NFR discourse going I say.  It's healthy.
Nogood "but what about Wales, isit" Boyo

[Holders]

Without bloodshed in the gabardene swinemass, I just don't understand why people keep trying to block this type of thread on the forum.  This has been one of the most interesting, intelligent, largely unemotional debates I have seen on here for a month of bloody Sundays.  And frankly, the footie threads are repetitive, predictable and increasingly infrequent.
Keep the NFR discourse going I say.  It's healthy.
Nogood "but what about Wales, isit" Boyo

I think that all the regions should have some form of local representation above county level - even Wales! Here in the SW, London seems very remote and irrelevant (except for footballing reasons!). I know people who get a nosebleed if they go past Exeter.

I have to say that I like the German model of federalism. There are, of course, historic reasons for that because Germany was unified (and I mean Bismarck's work, not the reunification of East and West) so much more recently than England. It would be interesting to know how long the German model will last - or whether it would still be in place here if England had gone the same way.

Federalism is a relevant way to work. It keeps entities together for all the relevant benefits of size whilst allowing a degree of autonomy to regions having their own identity and history. I'm, really surprised that it hasn't been suggested as a solution to the present difficulties. Except that Euro-sceptics don't like to use the F-word.

[Berserker]

Ah the unification of Germany, I still have a text book on it

[Holders]

Ah the unification of Germany, I still have a text book on it

But what if England had been unified along similar lines with the kingdoms becoming federal regions?

[MasterHaynes]

If they aren't prepared to issue their own currency, I don't see how independence will work.  I've heard the arguments, and I just don't see an economic benefit.  This is a vote of the heart, not the head.

What I don't understand about this whole currency argument is that I thought any country that now joins the EU has to take on the Euro. Why would Scotland be exempt from this requirement if they claim they can rejoin the EU as a separate entity within a year? At the same time I don't understand why no one has challenged Salmond on his claims of all the benefits gaining independence from Llondon, where the Scottish MPs do hold sway on many decisions yet at the same time selling the fact they will get immediate entry into the EU which will again cede control even further away to Brussels where they will hold no influence on law making or the infamous Fishery & CA policies which have a huge impact on Scotland

[nose]

If I were Scottish i would probably vote yes but it is a foolish way to go IMO. The perceived benefit will not happen and the individuals will in the end be no better off and risk being rather worse off. the cost of the break up will be high and in the end the politicians will remain the politicians and not deliver on their promises of economic paradise if we break apart.

The reason for the scotts to want to be independent is the same reason as so many want to leave europe, we want to rule ourselves regardless of the facts of what will happen to our economies.

I think I will draw a circle around myself and declare myself independent and not pay any more taxes to the government who have spectacularly failed to keep any of their promises to me over the years. That is all types of regime whether red, blue or coalition, the whole lot of them are worthless.   Maybe a theme for my up and coming 2,000th post.

[win-dup]

What have you got against the toothless? Do you know the prices the  mostly privatised dental services charge now? Though, in Scotland that probably still have NHS dentists, given the culture of greater equality and fairness than in England there- and their health system still seems to be pretty good.

Well, I noticed the difference when I moved  back to England from Glasgow - where my wife is from-ie it's a lot worse here if you're ill or old or disabled.

There are rich and poor areas in the west of Scotland just like anywhere else, though Glasgow does have some of the worst poverty and unemployment in Europe, as well as well off fashionable areas.

his name is win-dup, aka troll, don't let him get to you.

Troll? What cheek. If you want to see trolls go and see what a diet of whisky and deep fried Mars bars do to a physique.

On a more serious note, has someone has said earlier, what a considered and calm debate this has been on here. For what it's worth I think that if London were ruled from Edinburgh I would be definitely tempted to vote for independence.

[Rupert]

Someone made a crack about Culloden being an English victory over the Scots. The thing is, it was mostly lowland Scots on the winning side and mostly highland Scots (with a smattering of Irish and even some English) on the losing side. Scotland has invested as much blood and effort in the Union as England, and it is strange seeing how many of them want to lose the benefits of that sacrafice.

Oh, and all the Scots I know (several dozen) living in England are all anti independence. They see it as folly. They may or may not be an unrepresentative group.

[cmg]

I think it unwise to form a firm opinion about a place on the basis of a single visit.

For instance, many years ago I went on a school trip to Caen. A fine city and an ideal base from which to explore norther France.
My Dad, however didn't have a good word to say for the place. On his visit, he said, the place was literally falling down around his ears and that it was more dangerous than Glasgow on a Saturday night. I suppose the summer of '44 was poor timing for a visit, but he didn't have a lot of choice in the matter.

[Holders]

Perhaps someone might like to remind the Scots that Edinburgh was actually founded by King Edwin of Northumbria ("Edwin's borough"), until later ceded to (i think) Malcolm of Scotland, and that the eastern side of the country is mostly originally ethnically English.

So. if you draw a line from the Solway Firth through Edinburgh it's actually almost all our oil. You also get a positive result even if you extrapolate the present border which lies SW-NE.

If it weren't for the oil and gas they wouldn't want independence.

[FFC1987]

Hats off to the Mods for keeping it open. Really enjoyed this thread. The currency is an interesting one. I thought after the yes campaigners said they could do a Panama with the currency, it would have been a landslide No but hey, what do I know. For me, the debate on the telly was about the politicians and not about the country going forward. Lots of 'NHS to privatize' and 'we have young people living on the streets' and 'we will give money to the disabled' and less on how he will provide money if deficits occur and where the cuts will occur. Love the tradition of the UK and hope it continues.

[Holders]

The interesting thing would be the separation. They have just no idea how much will have to be repatriated and how much they'll have to start providing for themselves. Suddenly they'd be part of the real world.

[epsomraver]

If it stops the BBC from showing a clip from the so called Scottish premier league every Saturday night on the national news and all the results then I am for it, also take all their MPs back north so they don't ever vote on anything to do with the rest of us

[Berserker]

I will be gutted if we split. I'm really depressed by the prospect