Scotland

[Fernhurst]

I would normally avoid a thread such as this like the plague.
The flippancy of some of our posters regarding the enormity of this decison has been breathtaking.
Salmonds black Wednesday has come as some relief, but a known gambler with an ability to use and manipulate his own people will use every trick and promise to drag his preferred want over the finishing line.
The reason for my particular U turn in joining this debate came in the form of a phone call from relatives in Scotland now extremely worried Salmond may have convinced enough 16 year olds and assorted others to follow his narrow nationalistic agenda.
The phone call confirmed all funds and shares have been withdrawn from their Scottish bank and liquidated into English currency.
If other well educated folk take the same option it will lead to a run on the pound and evermore panic withdrawals.

Next Thursday's vote is enormously important for all the UK, let's hope the silent majority will prevail and our partner for over 300 years remains as part of the UK.

[Lighthouse]

Whatever happens, it will change things for the worse. We will end up in England wanting more independents pushing for more independence. More bureaucracy run by little hitlers all with their own cause to push.

United we stand, divided we fall.  

[Woolly Mammoth]

This has never been a United  Kingdom and never will be, I would prefer England to be Independent, and have our own Parliament, at present the Scots have their cake and eat it, at out expense. We just have to make sure we build Hadrians Wall a dam sight higher next time.

[Logicalman]

This has never been a United  Kingdom and never will be, I would prefer England to be Independent, and have our own Parliament, at present the Scots have their cake and eat it, at out expense. We just have to make sure we build Hadrians Wall a dam sight higher next time.

Perhaps a little narrow in perspective, though I agree generally it has not been so much a United Kingdom as much as a commonwealth. Scotland's independence has been on the cards for a long time, and now someone up there has taken out from the chattering classes into a movement of some kind. Would it be better for England? Not too sure about that.

[love4ffc]

This as been an interesting distraction from the FFC woe.  Being that I am neither Scottish or English I feel I can not really give an educated opinion on this subject.  However in the case of a yes vote, as some have pointed out here, I too would feel for those who do not want independence from the UK.

[MJG]

Excellent 'political'  thread everyone.  See it can be done.

[Holders]

It seems to me that the real debate has only begun over the past few days as the facts have started to come out. In the event of a "yes" vote, England would lose political clout but the consequences for Scotland would be much worse. I suspect they'd want to come back after the truth emerged but it couldn't be like that. But if they stay with us they'll never know and the idealistic rumblings would continue.

Regional identity within the greater whole is the best way in my view. It works in other countries - and the same goes for Europe but that's another topic!

If it does end up in "Devo-max", the issue of Scottish votes in Westminster over English/Welsh/N.I. affairs would have to be urgent addressed.

[Peabody]

Another question. If Yes loses, will that be the end of the independence debate?

[fulhamben]

Another question. If Yes loses, will that be the end of the independence debate?

hopefully for the time being, because we then need to move on to our eu referendum that we have been promised for years by 3 different pm's.

[MasterHaynes]

If they aren't prepared to issue their own currency, I don't see how independence will work.  I've heard the arguments, and I just don't see an economic benefit.  This is a vote of the heart, not the head.

What I don't understand about this whole currency argument is that I thought any country that now joins the EU has to take on the Euro. Why would Scotland be exempt from this requirement if they claim they can rejoin the EU as a separate entity within a year? At the same time I don't understand why no one has challenged Salmond on his claims of all the benefits gaining independence from Llondon, where the Scottish MPs do hold sway on many decisions yet at the same time selling the fact they will get immediate entry into the EU which will again cede control even further away to Brussels where they will hold no influence on law making or the infamous Fishery & CA policies which have a huge impact on Scotland

Can they enter the EU in just a year? I'm not too sure of that claim, even so, what do they do for that gap year? Dollars sounds good.

He quoted 'we can do what Panama did...' end of debate.

In the current climate, joining the EU means you join the euro. No country in the last 15-20 years have been able to avoid it and I can't see Scotland being any different. They can use the pound but will be heavily subsidized for the privilege.

No logic on an economical basis.

What on earth was he talking about.

The only thing I have read/heard is his threat to withhold Scotland share of UK debt unless the other three agree to a monetary union of some kind. I guess he has set the tone for what Scotland will be should it become independant - just threaten other countries to bend to its will (where have we heard that before?).

problem is he has no leverage with the therat, so what we keep hold of the debt but as creditor we keepp hold of the assets, e.g Rail track,  all the railways on Scotland will be owned by the UK taxpayer, RBS is owned by the Uk taxpayer, so not just the HO moves to UK but all the jobs move, North Sea Oil revenue will come directly to our exchequer until the debt is paid off not Scotland. He needs to understand that if he plays hard ball then don't be surprised when the other party does it. As for joining the EU does he really think he will get a better deal for his fishermen? the EU will grab more of the allowed catch and access to all areas as condition of joining, the EU don't need Scotland but they need the EU.

[Twig]

This has never been a United  Kingdom and never will be, I would prefer England to be Independent, and have our own Parliament, at present the Scots have their cake and eat it, at out expense. We just have to make sure we build Hadrians Wall a dam sight higher next time.

Haha and I suppose anyone Nth of Watford would not be part of little England, in fact why stop there?  Let's limit the future England to London and  the home counties.  On the basis of this logic there is no end to this shrinking perception of what makes up our nation.  Come on, of course there has always been a United Kingdom, there are internal rivalries but so there are in England between the red and white rose or effete Southerners and the North.  None of this diminishes the value of our United Kingdom and celebrating our differences is one of the aspects I am proudest of.  

[FFC1987]

I would normally avoid a thread such as this like the plague.
The flippancy of some of our posters regarding the enormity of this decison has been breathtaking.
Salmonds black Wednesday has come as some relief, but a known gambler with an ability to use and manipulate his own people will use every trick and promise to drag his preferred want over the finishing line.
The reason for my particular U turn in joining this debate came in the form of a phone call from relatives in Scotland now extremely worried Salmond may have convinced enough 16 year olds and assorted others to follow his narrow nationalistic agenda.
The phone call confirmed all funds and shares have been withdrawn from their Scottish bank and liquidated into English currency.
If other well educated folk take the same option it will lead to a run on the pound and evermore panic withdrawals.

Next Thursday's vote is enormously important for all the UK, let's hope the silent majority will prevail and our partner for over 300 years remains as part of the UK.

To be fair, apart from 1 or 2, overall everyone's been very respectful. Its a big decision and I for one, can't seem to understand whether the UK will benefit from it.

The one thing I will say is....The way the Yes voters have campaigned, fear mongered and lied to its people is mind boggling. Its been a huge slur from the off. Violence has erupted in parts where No voters have been bullied and alienated as unpatriotic. This has become dangerous and I hope its not contagious!

[Hurby]

As almost everyone points out nowadays, there are so many unanswered questions and so many unresolved issues to be addressed in case the "yes" vote prevails. The big (mainly City) law firms will be engaged for months and years to consult and draft the required agreements. Politicians from both sides of the border will use the asset/finance issues to their advantage and will play each other on rhetorics without hurrying to implement changes. I predict that for a very long time nothing will materially change as a result of a possible "yes" vote. It appears that the "yes" voters would expect changes to take place overnight and when impatience sets on, then trouble may arise.

[blingo]

The Spanish have already said they will veto any application from Scotland to join the EU. So they won't be joining the EU if they vote yes anyway.

[fulhamben]

As almost everyone points out nowadays, there are so many unanswered questions and so many unresolved issues to be addressed in case the "yes" vote prevails. The big (mainly City) law firms will be engaged for months and years to consult and draft the required agreements. Politicians from both sides of the border will use the asset/finance issues to their advantage and will play each other on rhetorics without hurrying to implement changes. I predict that for a very long time nothing will materially change as a result of a possible "yes" vote. It appears that the "yes" voters would expect changes to take place overnight and when impatience sets on, then trouble may arise.

forget the yes voters, if they decide they have had enough of us, I want them cut off over night.

[FFC1987]

As almost everyone points out nowadays, there are so many unanswered questions and so many unresolved issues to be addressed in case the "yes" vote prevails. The big (mainly City) law firms will be engaged for months and years to consult and draft the required agreements. Politicians from both sides of the border will use the asset/finance issues to their advantage and will play each other on rhetorics without hurrying to implement changes. I predict that for a very long time nothing will materially change as a result of a possible "yes" vote. It appears that the "yes" voters would expect changes to take place overnight and when impatience sets on, then trouble may arise.

forget the yes voters, if they decide they have had enough of us, I want them cut off over night.

Has anyone checked out the start up costs for currency changes and tax changes etc. from the financial times? Expected to cost in excess of £750m (based on a recent changer) but Scotland will undoubtedly cost more. Already the yes voters are saying this is 'fear mongering'....

[Forever Fulham]

Here's an opinion piece by Nobel Prize winning (Economics) Paul Krugman in the NY Times about Scotland's quixotic bid for "independence": http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/opinion/paul-krugman-scots-what-the-heck.html

[FFC1987]

Here's an opinion piece by Nobel Prize winning (Economics) Paul Krugman in the NY Times about Scotland's quixotic bid for "independence": http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/opinion/paul-krugman-scots-what-the-heck.html

Thanks for this. very interesting piece, one which I subscribe to.

I've already seen 'yes' voters respond to this as 'propaganda from a man on the take' and 'fear mongering from Wasteminster'. These are the kind of people who are driving Scotland into a disaster. I feel for the No voters and welcome them over if the yes wins.

[Rupert]

The Spanish have already said they will veto any application from Scotland to join the EU. So they won't be joining the EU if they vote yes anyway.

Yes, because an independent Scotland would give the Basques ideas, so the Spanish would want to squash the new state as thoroughly as they could to ensure everyone sees it is a bad idea to leave the mother country. I had not, until now, considered that part of the subject, so excellent point made, Mr B.

[cmg]

The Spanish have already said they will veto any application from Scotland to join the EU. So they won't be joining the EU if they vote yes anyway.

Yes, because an independent Scotland would give the Basques ideas, so the Spanish would want to squash the new state as thoroughly as they could to ensure everyone sees it is a bad idea to leave the mother country. I had not, until now, considered that part of the subject, so excellent point made, Mr B.

After the Basques (which would also include a bit of France, which would not make them happy) then Catalunya.
The UK is by no means the only European country that is an amalgamation of former kingdoms, principalities and duchies - what next? Prussia? Piedmont?