martin

[Holders]

MJG: "Also Nose its not indefensible, its a matter of opinion. I'd happily sit down with anyone and rewatch saturday and Tuesday with them and concentrate on Martin when in view.
Lets see if hes standing around twiddling his thumbs as many think or actually doing what he is asked".

I think that's the point. He may appear "useless" to some of us but is he just doing what the manager asks - a bit like Zamora did?

[fulhamben]

MJG: "Also Nose its not indefensible, its a matter of opinion. I'd happily sit down with anyone and rewatch saturday and Tuesday with them and concentrate on Martin when in view.
Lets see if hes standing around twiddling his thumbs as many think or actually doing what he is asked".

I think that's the point. He may appear "useless" to some of us but is he just doing what the manager asks - a bit like Zamora did?

I'm not totally on board with the Zamora thing either. Yes Roy would have told him to play a certain way, but then I doubt he told him to miss sitter after sitter each week, hell I doubt Roy was even that impressed with him that season as if he was, then why did he try to sell him to Hull and get crouch in to replace him? In hindsight we can all be thankfull that bobby couldn't agree terms with them, but I'm just not having that doing the role you are asked without adding something extra is enough

[Holders]

MJG: "Also Nose its not indefensible, its a matter of opinion. I'd happily sit down with anyone and rewatch saturday and Tuesday with them and concentrate on Martin when in view.
Lets see if hes standing around twiddling his thumbs as many think or actually doing what he is asked".

I think that's the point. He may appear "useless" to some of us but is he just doing what the manager asks - a bit like Zamora did?

I'm not totally on board with the Zamora thing either. Yes Roy would have told him to play a certain way, but then I doubt he told him to miss sitter after sitter each week, hell I doubt Roy was even that impressed with him that season as if he was, then why did he try to sell him to Hull and get crouch in to replace him? In hindsight we can all be thankfull that bobby couldn't agree terms with them, but I'm just not having that doing the role you are asked without adding something extra is enough

Obviously Zamora wasn't expected to miss sitters any more than Martin to miss penalties.

[Carborundum]

The table MJG put together is an interesting one.  First and foremost, thanks for sharing it.

The independent rankings are about where I would have ranked our players.  Well within a zone of reasonableness.  But the more I think about it, the fewer conclusions I draw about Chris Martin from the table.

Fulham is a team having a good season.  Imagine if we were having an amazing season.  Top of the table, automatic promotion in the bag etc.  We would still have a player ranked tenth.  They would be a hero, just like the others.  Because basically it's a team game about attacking and defending.

Attacking we are fine.  Only one team above us has scored more.  Defending we have pulled ourselves up from dreadful all the way to mediocre.  Progress, but we haven't got a good defence.

Chris Martins an attacker.  He might not be having a great season, but we are scoring freely enough.  The team functions well going forwards.

Defensively we often struggle and I don't see how that's Chris Martins fault. 

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

wow, I am always impressed there are few prepared to defend the indefensible

As I alluded to, those "few" include not just some of your peers but two experienced Championship managers. How on earth could that be?  What have you noticed that they haven't?

Or is there the faintest possibility that you, and those talking similarly, are the not-fully-observant ones?

Even those you describe as Martin's 'defenders' are far from enthusiastic about him of course, and 'defending' is not really what they are doing. They are simply trying to analyse -- and trying to account for why he has any kind of reputation in the Championship for his play (as opposed to character). It presumably puzzles you that he does -- but he does.

This is a distorting and unfair line of argument.

I for one can see and have stated many times what Martin offers, mainly his goals and physical presence. I can also see some of what Jokanovic, who has few options in attack with PIazon and Ayite injured, hopes to get from Martin. McClaren may see even more if he feels Martin suits their style.

Please offer those who criticise Martin the same courtesy that you award yourself of accepting that they are not being completely biased.

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

I'm a firm believer that in most situations in life, facts, numbers and objective analyses are better bases for decisions than emotions and casually-formed personal opinions.

Therefore, MJG's post resolves this debate pretty conclusively for me.

Apprentice TTM, your last post seems to say in a nutshell that Martin would have to outperform substantially every player in the team before you'd have anything positive to say about him. That's an understandable human reaction to what we've been told he did in December, but luckily for Fulham, Jokanovic, like me, clearly prefers reason and pragmatism.

You have ignored the point made so I will state it again: the Whoscored ratings have Martin in 10th place behind Cairney, Kalas, Johansen, McDonald, Aluko, Fredericks, Madl, Piazon and Malone.

Isn't that disappointing for the player rated the most expensive in the side and the only out-and-out striker in one of the best sides in the league in terms of possession and attacking when forwards typically get high ratings?

[MJG]

I'm a firm believer that in most situations in life, facts, numbers and objective analyses are better bases for decisions than emotions and casually-formed personal opinions.

Therefore, MJG's post resolves this debate pretty conclusively for me.

Apprentice TTM, your last post seems to say in a nutshell that Martin would have to outperform substantially every player in the team before you'd have anything positive to say about him. That's an understandable human reaction to what we've been told he did in December, but luckily for Fulham, Jokanovic, like me, clearly prefers reason and pragmatism.

You have ignored the point made so I will state it again: the Whoscored ratings have Martin in 10th place behind Cairney, Kalas, Johansen, McDonald, Aluko, Fredericks, Madl, Piazon and Malone.

Isn't that disappointing for the player rated the most expensive in the side and the only out-and-out striker in one of the best sides in the league in terms of possession and attacking when forwards typically get high ratings?

for comparison Dwight Gayle is 7th for Newcastle, Murray 6th for Brighton, Wood 5th for Leeds.

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

MJG: "Also Nose its not indefensible, its a matter of opinion. I'd happily sit down with anyone and rewatch saturday and Tuesday with them and concentrate on Martin when in view.
Lets see if hes standing around twiddling his thumbs as many think or actually doing what he is asked".

I think that's the point. He may appear "useless" to some of us but is he just doing what the manager asks - a bit like Zamora did?

I do not think these situations are quite comparable.

Firstly Martin is scoring goals whereas Zamora in his first season couldn't get goals despite trying.

Secondly Zamora took his role as hold up player seriously and was excellent at it. Martin has struggled all season to win the ball in the air or bring it under control and lay it off. If he did that a reasonable amount of times then I could believe that he was playing a role and could see him as a more rounded player and better appreciate his contribution but he hasn't.

[Holders]

MJG: "Also Nose its not indefensible, its a matter of opinion. I'd happily sit down with anyone and rewatch saturday and Tuesday with them and concentrate on Martin when in view.
Lets see if hes standing around twiddling his thumbs as many think or actually doing what he is asked".

I think that's the point. He may appear "useless" to some of us but is he just doing what the manager asks - a bit like Zamora did?

I do not think these situations are quite comparable.

Firstly Martin is scoring goals whereas Zamora in his first season couldn't get goals despite trying.

Secondly Zamora took his role as hold up player seriously and was excellent at it. Martin has struggled all season to win the ball in the air or bring it under control and lay it off. If he did that a reasonable amount of times then I could believe that he was playing a role and could see him as a more rounded player and better appreciate his contribution but he hasn't.

It was Roy who said that he was doing the job that he wanted him to, even when he wasn't getting goals and elements of the crowd were on his back.

I'm suggesting that perhaps Martin is doing to SJ's satisfaction the job that he wants him to do, not that the roles are necessarily identical.

[nose]

People do not always agree with me and I can cope.
I have said what i think and stand by it.
There are always players that manager's pick and many supporters completely see fit to understand. some opf graham taylor's selections as england manager wiuld come to mind. there are numerous players we have selected at fulham that in truth were not worth the paper they priinted on and yet the manager continued to selected them.

Why joca a man i have much regard for and was my prefered selection for fulham after kit left, picks him is a mystery, i have a couple of theories but none of them make sense. What i do know is that i have watched loads of football, played loads of football and like all of us wnat what is best for Fulham and in all honesty, I do not think martin is that. he may score a few goals, and i am delighted, but my critism is he is not giving his all and gives all the impression of somebody that is not that bothered.
The loan system is dreadful and placed him in what IMO is a rediculous situation that in any other walk of life would be considered a massive conflict of interests. I honestly do not know if that has anything to do with it, but certainly that might be an issue. we know he wanted to go back and the manager put his foot down.... he needed to show who was boss and I agree with that.
He clearly has ability, he clearly knows where the goal is, he does not entirely fit to me but that is another story.

But I cannot seriously  believe anybody thinks martin is giving his all, nowhere near, and that was the point of the post.

[Chutney]

Martin is coasting until he can finally get out of here. He doesn't want to be at Fulham, that has been made perfectly clear.

[EastEndWhite]

ha ha wtf are you lot going on about ? Unbiased charts rating him as 10th in MOTM ratings. 10th ! And other people feeling sorry for him ! ! ! He could sit in the centre circle for 90 minutes picking his @rse and people on here would still find an excuse to defend him. Get a grip.

Chris Martin being in the team seems to really get under your skin. 

[b+w geezer]

I for one can see and have stated many times what Martin offers, mainly his goals and physical presence. I can also see some of what Jokanovic, who has few options in attack with PIazon and Ayite injured, hopes to get from Martin.

So you can see reasons for his inclusion but believe them outweighed.

Please offer those who criticise Martin the same courtesy that you award yourself of accepting that they are not being completely biased.

What you and many others are conveying -- as per your first quote -- is variance about players such as we all have all the time. No probs with that, which is the valid, even essential, material for any messageboard. The more the merrier.

I was replying to someone who found his inclusion in the team "indefensible," which rules out everything to the contrary, including the bit quoted initially from you. Maybe he didn't really mean that, but it's what he posted and was being responded to.

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

MJG: "Also Nose its not indefensible, its a matter of opinion. I'd happily sit down with anyone and rewatch saturday and Tuesday with them and concentrate on Martin when in view.
Lets see if hes standing around twiddling his thumbs as many think or actually doing what he is asked".

I think that's the point. He may appear "useless" to some of us but is he just doing what the manager asks - a bit like Zamora did?

I do not think these situations are quite comparable.

Firstly Martin is scoring goals whereas Zamora in his first season couldn't get goals despite trying.

Secondly Zamora took his role as hold up player seriously and was excellent at it. Martin has struggled all season to win the ball in the air or bring it under control and lay it off. If he did that a reasonable amount of times then I could believe that he was playing a role and could see him as a more rounded player and better appreciate his contribution but he hasn't.

It was Roy who said that he was doing the job that he wanted him to, even when he wasn't getting goals and elements of the crowd were on his back.

I'm suggesting that perhaps Martin is doing to SJ's satisfaction the job that he wants him to do, not that the roles are necessarily identical.

I understand that.

Maybe someone here can explain what Martin is being asked to do that is different to what we expect of the other forwards and give some clear examples so that we doubters can better understand what is going on.

[MJG]

MJG: "Also Nose its not indefensible, its a matter of opinion. I'd happily sit down with anyone and rewatch saturday and Tuesday with them and concentrate on Martin when in view.
Lets see if hes standing around twiddling his thumbs as many think or actually doing what he is asked".

I think that's the point. He may appear "useless" to some of us but is he just doing what the manager asks - a bit like Zamora did?

I do not think these situations are quite comparable.

Firstly Martin is scoring goals whereas Zamora in his first season couldn't get goals despite trying.

Secondly Zamora took his role as hold up player seriously and was excellent at it. Martin has struggled all season to win the ball in the air or bring it under control and lay it off. If he did that a reasonable amount of times then I could believe that he was playing a role and could see him as a more rounded player and better appreciate his contribution but he hasn't.

It was Roy who said that he was doing the job that he wanted him to, even when he wasn't getting goals and elements of the crowd were on his back.

I'm suggesting that perhaps Martin is doing to SJ's satisfaction the job that he wants him to do, not that the roles are necessarily identical.

I understand that.

Maybe someone here can explain what Martin is being asked to do that is different to what we expect of the other forwards and give some clear examples so that we doubters can better understand what is going on.

I did this a few months ago to try and explain what hes doing for us. I dont think hes being asked to play the normal last man on the defenders role.
His job is the hub of a wheel, with the ball being laid off to those rotating around him.  I dont even think its in the Zamora way of playing either as the system was different. But i think this is what he brings and like last week he showed he has an eye for goal.

[Chesh]

it would be interesting to be able to gauge how peoples' analysis of Martin's worth on the pitch at the moment has been clouded by their understandable loathing of his initial strike action (as opposed to his performances being actually affected by his situation).

Personally, I see, and trust Joka does, that he no longer really has anything to gain by not trying or caring, and watching him close at hand during the last 2 games he does try, and his reaction to decisions not going our way do not appear to be fake.

Furthermore, his continued run in the team should yield further goals imo, and so I think he should start.

Finally, what if he signed that new Derby contract to secure his future (unsure that Fulham would sign him permanently), and yes with the probability of returning to them, but understanding all along that if the Fulham  proposition turned out better at the end of the season (which it might now), he could take up the option of signing for us anyway (if we wanted it also)? I can potentially see that happening, believe it or not.

:028:

[Chutney]

When the season ends, Martin will be delighted because he can finally leave. This is why, to me, it doesn't matter what he offers or how he plays, I mean come on, he genuinely signed a contract with another team while playing for us to try and force a move back to them. He then went on strike. So regardless of what he offers or how he plays, he shouldn't be in our side.

He has disrespected the club, the fans and his team mates, please don't forget that if he scores a few goals.

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

I'm a firm believer that in most situations in life, facts, numbers and objective analyses are better bases for decisions than emotions and casually-formed personal opinions.

Therefore, MJG's post resolves this debate pretty conclusively for me.

Apprentice TTM, your last post seems to say in a nutshell that Martin would have to outperform substantially every player in the team before you'd have anything positive to say about him. That's an understandable human reaction to what we've been told he did in December, but luckily for Fulham, Jokanovic, like me, clearly prefers reason and pragmatism.

You have ignored the point made so I will state it again: the Whoscored ratings have Martin in 10th place behind Cairney, Kalas, Johansen, McDonald, Aluko, Fredericks, Madl, Piazon and Malone.

Isn't that disappointing for the player rated the most expensive in the side and the only out-and-out striker in one of the best sides in the league in terms of possession and attacking when forwards typically get high ratings?

Most expensive in the side? Kalas, Sessegnon and Cairney would all either cost much more to buy or cause uproar if they left for any less. And none of them are strikers whom, as already explained, have an especially high premium. I haven't ignored your point; I just think that had it not been for him missing one game over two months ago, we wouldn't be complaining about his performances any more than we complain about Sessegnon, Ream, Button, Kebano, Ayite (i.e. half our current starting XI) and everyone else he's statistically outperforming.

You are misusing the word 'expensive' when you 'mean' valuable. If we take up the option we will have paid out more money for Martin than any other player in the team. That makes him the most expensive.

I am judging Martin on his performances based on his price, experience and performance on the pitch. Why don't you And others defend him on that basis alone rather that fall back on him downing tools?

As for your list of lower ranked players, I would certainly put  Kebano and Ayite on the team sheet before Martin. Sessegnon is just 16 years old and in his first real season and I think most would rate him decent in performance and exceptional in potential. Ream and Button have had some poor or worrying performances so are understandably low in the rankings but are thought to be the best we have in those positions, better than Sigurdsson and Bettinelli and left sided sompreferred to Madl.

So, again, Martin does not need our sympathy or understanding. He is underperforming for one of his experience and price tag.

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

MJG: "Also Nose its not indefensible, its a matter of opinion. I'd happily sit down with anyone and rewatch saturday and Tuesday with them and concentrate on Martin when in view.
Lets see if hes standing around twiddling his thumbs as many think or actually doing what he is asked".

I think that's the point. He may appear "useless" to some of us but is he just doing what the manager asks - a bit like Zamora did?

I do not think these situations are quite comparable.

Firstly Martin is scoring goals whereas Zamora in his first season couldn't get goals despite trying.

Secondly Zamora took his role as hold up player seriously and was excellent at it. Martin has struggled all season to win the ball in the air or bring it under control and lay it off. If he did that a reasonable amount of times then I could believe that he was playing a role and could see him as a more rounded player and better appreciate his contribution but he hasn't.

It was Roy who said that he was doing the job that he wanted him to, even when he wasn't getting goals and elements of the crowd were on his back.

I'm suggesting that perhaps Martin is doing to SJ's satisfaction the job that he wants him to do, not that the roles are necessarily identical.

I understand that.

Maybe someone here can explain what Martin is being asked to do that is different to what we expect of the other forwards and give some clear examples so that we doubters can better understand what is going on.

I did this a few months ago to try and explain what hes doing for us. I dont think hes being asked to play the normal last man on the defenders role.
His job is the hub of a wheel, with the ball being laid off to those rotating around him.  I dont even think its in the Zamora way of playing either as the system was different. But i think this is what he brings and like last week he showed he has an eye for goal.

I can sort of see this but again I just do not see that either the approach or particularly Martin is being effective.

I am not seeing the flicks on or through balls to Aluko or Ayite (in your diagram or their equivalents), the lay offs to Cairney or Johansen for shots on goal or through balls to A+A or the moving of the ball out wide for Malone or Fredericks.

For all his peculiarities in not being a traditional centre forward McCormack always wanted to be a key part of the game and on the ball. He was The focus of many of most of our moves, if a bit too dominant on occasions for the team good.

It says something that Martin is seen as being asked to play a role rather than being there for the strengths someone of his experience and cost should be bringing to the side.

[MJG]

Quick point on the MOTM rankings and Whoscored.com

These are based on full season so far.
Hence why Kebano is low down as we can all agree I'm sure that prior to the Cup trip he made, he had been deemed a failure of sorts.