Team in for tonight / Matchday thread Porto

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

Thank you for promptly illustrating the silliness of your posts.

You could have chosen to engage in a reasonable discussion, but instead you opt to dismiss arguments in a childish manner. You could for example have tried to provide arguments for why you believe that Porto finishing top three in the seventh highest ranked league in Europe is so much better than a team finishing bottom half in the second highest ranked league in Europe.

Statto was making out that I was comparing leagues which I was not. That is an argument that you debunk in your other post and one which the vast majority will know for themselves without the need for any elucidation from me.

Also, he was using a tactic prevalent in social media of deflecting discussion away from the original issue, the claim that Porto were a PL relegation or Championship quality side.

There comes a stage when it is clearly pointless engaging further.

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

If you reread the posts you will see that Statto was the poster to compare clubs across leagues, not me. He compared Porto to PL relegation and Championship clubs on the basis of their finances, not on their footballing ability.

I am not comparing leagues which cannot be done as your Malmo/Everton comparison tries to  illustrate. I am pointing to Porto's performances in European competition which are above PL relegation level, maybe as you suggest mid-table PL level.

Porto have had at least ten years of consistency in their own league leading to regular European competitions, they have won two European Cup/Champions League trophies and two UEFA Cup/Europa League trophies and had an impressive run in the Champions League just last season. That's Everton level or more it might be suggested.

And just to reiterate, it was only a pre-season game and, though pleasing that we were not outclassed and showed some flashes of creativity, not much weight should be placed on the performance.

I think you missed my point. Statto compared economics, which should matter quite a bit since it would determine how much they could pay for a player. Even though there are of course other factors (climate, chance of European football and titles, culture etc.) the money a club has would roughly correspond with the quality of player that they can acquire. Therefore, the comparison is not pointless.

You compared league position between leagues that are not at all of the same quality (as far as I believe at least). This is a fairly pointless comparison without added context, as both me and Statto tried to point out by taking your own way of reasoning one (or maybe a few) step(s) further.

I do believe you have a point with their European play, but last year apart from Roma, Porto did not really go up against any really tough teams. It is also worth pointing out that it is of course easier to achieve European success if you have a reasonable chance to even participate regularly. Porto will always participate unless they have an absolutely catastrophic season, whereas most PL clubs will maybe get in by winning a domestic cup once every 10 years at best.

As for your last point, I believe that most posters has acknowledged this already. Still doesn't mean that one cannot be critical of or comment on the performance.

I can see that you are trying to be reasonable but I don't think defending the claim merits such effort.

The claim was that Porto were a PL relegation or Championship promotion side. You in a subsequent post did not to seem to agree with that.

The quality of a team is determined by their performances on the pitch. Economics and other factors influence how clubs are likely to perform. But the quality of the team we were playing yesterday is indicated by Porto's performance in last year's Champions League not how much their players cost or how much money their owners have (example needed here. Any suggestions?).

I did not compare league positions between leagues.

I believe Shalke and Galatasary in addition to Roma are quality European level sides and Lokomotive Moscow away is unlikely to be an easy ride.

[Statto]

Statto was making out that I was comparing leagues which I was not.

I did not compare league positions between leagues.

If you don't consider it possible to compare leagues in different countries, fine. However, a corollary of that would be that there can never be an argument that we should expect to win/lose against a foreign team because, if it's impossible to compare foreign leagues, we can never have any idea how good/bad a team is, relative to us, unless they play in the same league as us. Porto's performance in the Portuguese league, and their results against teams who've I. turn done well in the Italian, Turkish and Russian leagues, can have no relevance to Fulham without some sense of how those leagues compare to our league.

So your position, I presume, is that all posts saying we should have expected to be outplayed by and/or lose to Porto, must be rejected. 

That being the case, it seems we've been arguing at cross purposes and actually we agree, albeit with different reasoning.

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[YankeeJim]

reminded me of the friendly last season against celta vigo. it was obvious then we did not have a good enough squad, and the same was apparent tonight. prepare fr a dreadful season is my outlook, because TK has failed to bring in the required players once again. I can hardly ait for deadline day loans and injured players.

Jesus, do you wake up every morning annoyed at being alive?

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[@jolslover]

I wouldn't infer much from a single, relatively early pre-season friendly, but equally, some are going way OTT about how good Porto are. In economic terms they're someone between a top 2 Championship side and a bottom 3 PL side. So comparable to Norwich.

You are underrating Porto massively there. They are as good as Leicester. A top 10 prem side

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

Statto was making out that I was comparing leagues which I was not.

I did not compare league positions between leagues.

If you don't consider it possible to compare leagues in different countries, fine. However, a corollary of that would be that there can never be an argument that we should expect to win/lose against a foreign team because, if it's impossible to compare foreign leagues, we can never have any idea how good/bad a team is, relative to us, unless they play in the same league as us. Porto's performance in the Portuguese league, and their results against teams who've I. turn done well in the Italian, Turkish and Russian leagues, can have no relevance to Fulham without some sense of how those leagues compare to our league.

So your position, I presume, is that all posts saying we should have expected to be outplayed by and/or lose to Porto, must be rejected. 

That being the case, it seems we've been arguing at cross purposes and actually we agree, albeit with different reasoning.

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You are deliberately misrepresenting my simple point yet again: Porto are a good side as demonstrated by their European record including their run in the Champions League last season. They are better than a PL relegation or Championship promotion side as you asserted.

This nonsense about comparing leagues is your obsession, not something that I have raised.

[Sting of the North]

I can see that you are trying to be reasonable but I don't think defending the claim merits such effort.

The claim was that Porto were a PL relegation or Championship promotion side. You in a subsequent post did not to seem to agree with that.

The quality of a team is determined by their performances on the pitch. Economics and other factors influence how clubs are likely to perform. But the quality of the team we were playing yesterday is indicated by Porto's performance in last year's Champions League not how much their players cost or how much money their owners have (example needed here. Any suggestions?).

I did not compare league positions between leagues.

I believe Shalke and Galatasary in addition to Roma are quality European level sides and Lokomotive Moscow away is unlikely to be an easy ride.

Firstly, I am not trying to be reasonable. Or rather, I am always trying to be reasonable which I hope that most posters are trying most of the time. I don't try to argue against a point for argument's sake. I know it may appear so, but that is never my intention.

Secondly, Statto's point (as I understood it) was not that Porto would necessarily be relegated if playing in the PL, but that their economics are closer to that level indicating that the players they have would roughly be at that level. This point was most likely (again as I understood it) made in reference to some posters claim that we were playing a great team. The argument put forward tried (as I understood it) put this into another perspective, namely that we did not go up against a European giant where all their players are necessarily better than ours.

Secondly, I have never disagreed with your statement that the quality of a club is determined by their performances (neither has Statto in this thread, as far as I can see). The problem is that i) their (Porto's) performance in the league is difficult to compare to a performance by another team in another league, and ii) their performance in Europe is difficult to compare to a team not playing in Europe (the English teams that did play in Europe seemed to do fairly well).

Further, I never said that any of those teams are not quality sides but I also don't think any of those sides (apart from probably Roma who should be at Everton's level) would be upper half PL teams. I think that Moscow and potentially Galatasaray (with their current squad) would be relegated. That is just a fairly uneducated guess though.

The biggest difference between Porto and bottom half PL sides is that Porto is more used to winning, which may make a big difference, and would support your point of view. In my opinion.   

[Statto]

You are deliberately misrepresenting my simple point yet again: Porto are a good side as demonstrated by their European record including their run in the Champions League last season. They are better than a PL relegation or Championship promotion side as you asserted.

No. I'm genuinely just trying to infer some logic and reasoning where, thus far, you've offered none.

How do you reason, from their performance in Europe, ie against non-English teams, that Porto are better/worse than certain English teams?

If I may explain in simple terms the gap in your logic at present, imagine I had three balls of different sizes, balls A, B and C. Ball A is bigger than ball B. Now tell me, is ball A bigger or smaller than ball C?

The answer is you cannot say. Just as you cannot say, based on Porto beating Galatasary, Shalke et al, whether they are better or worse than Fulham, Leeds, Derby et al. (that is, without comparing their respective leagues or using some other metric like their economics)

[The Rational Fan]

You are deliberately misrepresenting my simple point yet again: Porto are a good side as demonstrated by their European record including their run in the Champions League last season. They are better than a PL relegation or Championship promotion side as you asserted.

No. I'm genuinely just trying to infer some logic and reasoning where, thus far, you've offered none.

How do you reason, from their performance in Europe, ie against non-English teams, that Porto are better/worse than certain English teams?

If I may explain in simple terms the gap in your logic at present, imagine I had three balls of different sizes, balls A, B and C. Ball A is bigger than ball B. Now tell me, is ball A bigger or smaller than ball C?

The answer is you cannot say. Just as you cannot say, based on Porto beating Galatasary, Shalke et al, whether they are better or worse than Fulham, Leeds, Derby et al. (that is, without comparing their respective leagues or using some other metric like their economics)

One comparison is the market value of Porto players is less than Wolves, but more than Watford, Burnley or any Championship Club. We really cannot tell much in a early season friendly with a one goal loss or victory, fringe players will be playing their best so its a good chance to see our teams depth. Under FFP, we cannot really get a new team if the current team is worthless, we can just modify the weakest link bit by bit.