Author Topic: Cyrus Christie - The Times  (Read 4297 times)

Offline The Rock

  • MAESTRO
  • **
  • Posts: 2551
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #100 on: October 09, 2019, 06:35:03 PM »
Footballers are not robots. I recall Chris Baird used to get booed when he came on as a sub until Roy arrived. They are human beings, if off form it is not their fault. It has just not worked out for Christie here. I thought he looked good when he first arrived an thought him to be a replacement for Fredericks. But it did not work out.  I hope he finds a club where it does.


 092.gif   

I think with Baird he got even more stick initially because he was brought in by Sanchez who knew him from the NI side and everyone assumed knew how to use him. Roy was really good for him.

I just haven't rated Christie. I haven't slagged him either. We just need (and have needed) better. Can be said about many of our defenders over the past number of years as well at different points.

Are you saying that Bairdy suffered racial abuse? I neither accept, or recall that

I was talking about the reaction PURELY to his football playing ability ONLY. Baird was booed for months on end before Roy set him straight. End of.

Offline Statto

  • Gentleman Jim
  • ***
  • Posts: 7850
  • Test
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #101 on: October 09, 2019, 07:11:08 PM »
those are the findings of the Samaritans who I would suggest have a pretty good reason to be precise in their findings

What is that reason then? Everyone has a narrative they want to push, whether it's Donald Trump or the Samaritans. When you have an increase in reports of mental health problems, one group will say it means people have become less robust, another group will say it means the world's become a tougher place to live, and another group will say it just means people are more likely to disclose mental health problems. They can't all be right.

Online toshes mate

  • cebu
  • *
  • Posts: 4867
  • Vitam Impendere Vero
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #102 on: October 09, 2019, 07:15:32 PM »
Beautiful friendships are often based on the fact that the players complement each other with great economy and satisfaction, so that there is a maximum yield with a minimum effort from the games they play with each other.   (Eric Berne 1910-1970)

Berne was an American Psychiatrist who is said to be the Father of Transactional Analysis (i.e. I am okay, you are okay) and was given almost heretic status by his professional colleagues because he argued against many of the practices he saw them perform.  His book 'The Games People Play' is inspirational but please do not take my word for it, just read it.  Although simple in concept it's quite hard to put his advice into practice, as he explains within the text, but it makes you see everything very differently and will change your mind about what mental illness really is and means. 


Online toshes mate

  • cebu
  • *
  • Posts: 4867
  • Vitam Impendere Vero
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #103 on: October 09, 2019, 07:16:12 PM »
those are the findings of the Samaritans who I would suggest have a pretty good reason to be precise in their findings

What is that reason then? Everyone has a narrative they want to push, whether it's Donald Trump or the Samaritans. When you have an increase in reports of mental health problems, one group will say it means people have become less robust, another group will say it means the world's become a tougher place to live, and another group will say it just means people are more likely to disclose mental health problems. They can't all be right.
But they can all be wrong.

Offline Logicalman

  • Global Moderator
  • The Bard/Corked Hat
  • *
  • Posts: 3835
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #104 on: October 09, 2019, 09:14:48 PM »
Just in the interests of balance within this thread, this is what is said about suicides, mental health and incomes by the Samaritans. 

“Men in the lowest social class, living in the most deprived areas, are up to 10 times more at risk of suicide then those in the highest social class living in the most affluent areas." 

The report goes on to say that mental health experts know much less about the main sources of mental illness among lower income groups than they know of the sources of mental health issues in wealthier groups which are considerably better documented and more publicly discussed.

That is a very interesting quote, not the veracity of the quote itself, but the overall context.

Are they stating at the time of the incident that the demographic are true, or that such past demographics also play into the overall circumstances?  Any further indication of the publication/source please?

Offline bobbo

  • Legend
  • ***
  • Posts: 1982
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #105 on: October 09, 2019, 09:46:18 PM »
It certainly gets to m to hear about that article. I can put my hand on my heart and say I've never in 61 years supporting ever booed any Fulham player or team. Maybe the opposition when I was younger .
Very sad for the lad he's not my favourite right back but I'm not about to criticise him.
He's better than I ever was .


Offline The Rational Fan

  • Jimmy Hill
  • *
  • Posts: 2045
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #106 on: October 09, 2019, 11:47:18 PM »
those are the findings of the Samaritans who I would suggest have a pretty good reason to be precise in their findings

What is that reason then? Everyone has a narrative they want to push, whether it's Donald Trump or the Samaritans. When you have an increase in reports of mental health problems, one group will say it means people have become less robust, another group will say it means the world's become a tougher place to live, and another group will say it just means people are more likely to disclose mental health problems. They can't all be right.

They can all be right; I think all three are correct a) people have become less robust, b) the world has become more complex (ie tougher to understand) and c) people are more likely to disclose mental illiness.

Online Sting of the North

  • Legend
  • ***
  • Posts: 1380
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #107 on: October 10, 2019, 12:37:36 AM »
I agree with both Toshes and TRF. They can all be wrong or they can all be right, or somewhere in between. Only way it is impossible for them all to be right is if either one explicitly contradicts one or two of the others, or if we assume that there can only be one single answer.

For what it's worth, I also agree with Statto's point though, that more often than not (basically always) there is some kind of underlying agenda however well meaning that is. To be truly objective and cover all aspects of a problem is a really difficult task in most cases. When dealing with things as complex as mental illnesses I would argue that it is basically impossible. 

Online toshes mate

  • cebu
  • *
  • Posts: 4867
  • Vitam Impendere Vero
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #108 on: October 10, 2019, 08:32:31 AM »
A Samaritans report was commissioned in 2016 which confirmed long held observations about the links between suicide and social deprivation, poverty, and the absence of support mechanisms. There are many of these reports to be read through media and many are available on the Samaritans websites. It was once said that Samaritans speak to the minority of suicidal people but the health service sees the majority, but the real figures are skewed by what I mentioned earlier - the more affluent you are the more likely it is you'll receive support if you seek it.  This is borne out by almost all the research. 

I think it is fanciful to believe mental illness is more prevalent now.  It has always been there and many people (like Dr Berne mentioned earlier) would say we are all ill because we choose to be ill and the saner people are the ones most likely to seek escape because the rest of us think they are mad.  The world is less free than is was in my childhood, more regimented, more dictated by money, but people are more 'abused' in unpleasant ways than they ever were in my youth.  I think we have regressed a long way in the last forty or so years and it is sad.  The reason?  Lack of depth of understanding because we communicate in superficial ways like I am doing here.


Offline RaySmith

  • Gentleman Jim
  • ***
  • Posts: 5943
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #109 on: October 10, 2019, 09:12:05 AM »
I definitely agree that  the 'rise' in  mental-illness is because it's more acceptable to seek treatment for this, with a lot more  publicity - sympathetic publicity, rather than  seeing mental health problems as weakness. Now it seems you can hardly move for a celebrity  disclosing  a history of anxiety or depression, and speaking frankly about it in the media,which has many programmes  addressing this subject.
A lot different from when i was young.

But at the same time, we have had  ferocious cuts in NHS services, and local government facilities, like drop -in centres, and emergency care, which  have  greatly affected actual care for those  suffering from these, often seriously disabling, problems, even life threatening - with suicide rates  growing in some areas, and also  deaths through drug use.

I agree, and think it obvious, that the most socially disadvantaged are more likely to suffer from  mental ill health,and are also less likely to get suitable treatment, and also less likely to present to the doctor- if they can even get an appointment.
A lot of drug and alcohol addiction is people self medicating for mental health problems, especially working-class men, and black people have also long been  over represented in figures of those  being treated for  mental-illness. And i don't think it's rocket science to see the reasons.

Much has been made of men not wanting to go to the doctor when they have problems, but you never hear, that doctors have traditionally been much less sympathetic to men presenting with these problems, or that  the way people  treated for mental health problems  is, historically, rubbish ( I would use a far stronger term in conversation), and that the system has always been abusive towards such people, going right back to the  asylums of the 19th century.

But you only of hear middle-class accounts of  sympathetic treatment, but the reality is far different  for most people, especially if they come from  a disadvantaged background, and in the areas where they live there is a lot of pressure on the system, which is  struggling to cope.

But, of course , having money doesn't stop you getting disabling mental health problems, and i think there is a lot of pressure being a pro footballer, and  you're not even  able to talk about it - because  everyone thinks you're so lucky and privileged.

Though, at least if you are well off, you can pay for the best treatment, but I do think it's been traditionally hard for footballers to  seek, and obtain,  help for their problems, unlike cricketers , say - which i think is a lot to do with he social class background of those involved in  playing and running cricket, compared to football.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 10:10:53 AM by RaySmith »

Offline Logicalman

  • Global Moderator
  • The Bard/Corked Hat
  • *
  • Posts: 3835
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #110 on: October 10, 2019, 01:28:29 PM »
toshes mate & RaySmith great observations, and very true regarding the apparent 'rise' in mental illness, like most things, SM has allowed a greater reporting medium to become effective in understanding the scale of the issues nowadays, and, like crime reporting, has given the perception of a 'rise', whether it be true or not.
Interesting snippet from the BBC this morning regarding obesity in children, it was found that it is most prevalent in poorer areas. Though they do not provide specific breakdowns of this, the main story links obesity to nutrition and the greater access to 'unhealthy options', I would insert fast food and it's cheapness, as being the main cause. Given that, then it is not a far jump to say that obesity in adults is also an issue in self-worthiness/esteem, and that is also linked to suicides.  So, are we now producing a generation more susceptible to the risk of suicide?

Offline mlangstrom

  • Graham Leggat
  • **
  • Posts: 350
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #111 on: October 10, 2019, 11:23:05 PM »
A generation of softies


Online toshes mate

  • cebu
  • *
  • Posts: 4867
  • Vitam Impendere Vero
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #112 on: October 11, 2019, 09:30:53 AM »
@logicalman

I think the overriding fault with social media is how the search algorithms are now designed to push particular 'agendas' which are influenced by corporate, commercial and political interests, and those interests are not healthy by any sense of the word.  Originally the internet had an array of capabilities which used key words in search expressions which allowed both expansion of the search expression as well as narrowing, meaning you could then understand more about what you were really looking for rather than less.

That ceases to happen in modern browsers meaning that large amounts of very useful information are buried deep in the so called 'dark web' where the main search engines refuse to go.  There are browsers and search engines that do go deeper but these have to use tunneling algorithms to connect to sites with these hidden treasures from a time when information wasn't priced.  Such browsers are frowned upon by Governmental security agencies and your machine will become a target of their interest if you install them.  That in itself tells you all you need to know as to why society has made such a mess of what was to be one of the greatest information sources of all time - the internet a true gatepost to freedom as it once was.

My own view is that human beings need support frameworks that involve person to person interface and since such interfaces involve time and money spent by someone they are eliminated at the very beginning of any trawl to fish out expenses that can be avoided.  We have created a very hostile environment for anyone who doesn't easily want to conform, hence more people become unhappy and can only find solace in those who feel the same way.  It confounds me as to why anthropogenic climate change is the only focus of revolution these days, since I believe that is one of the least likely catastrophes humankind faces in the immediate future.  We really need a revolution against so called liberal values.

Offline Roberty

  • Jimmy Hill
  • *
  • Posts: 2066
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #113 on: October 11, 2019, 10:45:28 AM »
"I think the overriding fault with social media"

Social Media - is a disguise for what it consensual spying, with a view to their monetising whatever information you've provided

W C Fields quote - "never give a sucker and even break" perfectly describes their modus operandi and their stated endeavour of "providing a better experience for users" would be more truthful is they were open enough to say make more money out of them

Online MJG

  • Jimmy Hill
  • *
  • Posts: 2411
  • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #114 on: October 11, 2019, 10:55:25 AM »
I prefer to see a difference between 'Social media' and 'The Internet'  although I do agree when searching for something you are at times pushed towards approved sites as such.

But there is a difference and I think its improtant to not mix the two as such. Social media can be like shouting in teh street what you are doing at that moment, but then on other hand i'm reading a paper looking for something.


Online toshes mate

  • cebu
  • *
  • Posts: 4867
  • Vitam Impendere Vero
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #115 on: October 11, 2019, 05:00:58 PM »
Social media is probably a bit of a misnomer in the context of this thread.  If you buy something from a major online supplier it will trigger a marker to be placed against anything that can be linked to you and Google (etc) have the powerful software and data banks to achieve this.  It means everything links in to certain uses of social media - I have no idea how deep this goes and I doubt anyone else does either - and many other non-social media activity and that is what is really disturbing about it.

This link is to an interesting video by Alex Winter in which he talks about the Dark Web and gives you a glimpse of the tools you need to get there and what you should expect to find.  He also fondly talks about what I mentioned about the early days of the internet when it was hassle free and a great place to make friends (I have physically met dozens of people I first met during my earliest internet adventures and I can vouch for what Alex says about this.

The link is here :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luvthTjC0OI

Online MJG

  • Jimmy Hill
  • *
  • Posts: 2411
  • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #116 on: October 11, 2019, 05:26:20 PM »
Social media is probably a bit of a misnomer in the context of this thread.  If you buy something from a major online supplier it will trigger a marker to be placed against anything that can be linked to you and Google (etc) have the powerful software and data banks to achieve this.  It means everything links in to certain uses of social media - I have no idea how deep this goes and I doubt anyone else does either - and many other non-social media activity and that is what is really disturbing about it.

This link is to an interesting video by Alex Winter in which he talks about the Dark Web and gives you a glimpse of the tools you need to get there and what you should expect to find.  He also fondly talks about what I mentioned about the early days of the internet when it was hassle free and a great place to make friends (I have physically met dozens of people I first met during my earliest internet adventures and I can vouch for what Alex says about this.

The link is here :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luvthTjC0OI
I understand what your saying, I use the dark Web as well as good old Google. It was a much more innocent time when Web first came out.

Offline mrmicawbers

  • Graham Leggat
  • **
  • Posts: 954
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #117 on: October 11, 2019, 05:46:39 PM »
I wouldn't wish to be a teenager today with all this social media as it is.It seems you are only worthy if you have hundreds of people as friends.don't do Facebook and the like.Obviously like to keep in touch on sites like this and am on a WhatsApp site with my Fulham friends and family called Fulhams Finest lol.I have to wonder if the rise in metal health issues has something to do with social media and the problems it causes.Seems to me like people can say what they like without getting a right hander.The keyboard carrier syndrome. Google on the other hand is a great tool and can be used to great effect. Mind you people I know think there phones have people listening in.

Online toshes mate

  • cebu
  • *
  • Posts: 4867
  • Vitam Impendere Vero
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #118 on: October 11, 2019, 06:21:58 PM »
Mind you people I know think there phones have people listening in.
There is an interesting factual story about a guy whose voice was part of the original tests for Google's voice activated response software whereby his home voice activated device went out of control and sent all his personal information including all his mobile phone encrypted data, texts, emails, photos, etc to all those involved in his online social network.  It was put down to a 'response test project' that had been mistakenly left in the main publcly issued software which recognised who he was, what he was experimenting with, and where the data should be sent.  Listening in may not be required when voice recognition software can turn your conversations into words and leave them all neatly packaged and deposited in a data bank somewhere. 

Offline jayffc

  • tjl
  • *
  • Posts: 149
Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
« Reply #119 on: October 11, 2019, 10:19:01 PM »
I believe the current understanding within the social sciences is that up until a certain amount of money (enough to be comfortable and not stress too much about bills or being thrown out your home usually) mental issues are indeed prevalent and more likely to occur. But that beyond that the levels of "happiness' and mental health actually don't appear to increase significantly the richer you get (outside of the theory that if you are that rich you have better access to care once diagnosed.)

The biggest factors here, other than the stress and threat of losing your home, not being able to provide for yourself or family, lack of sense of personal value to society. Is not just the poverty itself, but relative poverty. There is more likelihood of both higher crime rates and mental health issues, in places where people are very poor, living next to people who are very rich. This says a lot about perceived value.

But again. Wealth is only seemingly a dominating factor when discussing the very bottom of the spectrum. Up until that fairly low point where enough money is made to be comfortable, endless more riches don't appear to decrease mental health issues or indeed guard you against them.

However, The point here is not dealing just with day to day mental health issues we all face. It's specific in this case (to bring it back to Christie) to the lengthy exposure to a type of continuous verbal abuse that almost none of us will ever experience on that scale in the workplace. No matte how mean some of our bosses may be, few of us have clients turn up weekly in the office on masse, booing us, screaming that we are s*** and should f*** off out the company, then taking to social media to directly tell us how s*** we are when we get home. So ....I have a lot of sympathy for anyone going through that, which I think most reasonable people (and I include surely 99.9% of us here) feel that way,which is reassuring.

As an aside... I think alot of people talking about the old days are somewhat overlooking how huge a shift the internet has been. We don't live in the same times. The internet is still very new, and is a huge, huge shift. We have constant access to over stimulus, via mobile phones/tablets etc. We have constant comparisons to other peoples lives in the palms of our hands, all day, and notifications reminding us to plug in to that. This is huge in regards to the themes of relative poverty (both monetary and in regards to being envious of others perceived lifestyles)

We have much more access to live updates of atrocities all around the world. We actually live in some of the most peaceful and prosperous times EVER in history, and yet many of us perceive that the world is totally f***ed at the moment because we're more aware of the bad stuff going on in the world than ever before.

We are also more heavily into consumerism than ever, that's had a huge effect on mental health. The focus of sociery has shifted SO much since the birth of the internet.
We are much more aware of a sense of impending doom and armageddon with climate change. The potential extinction of everything for the kids we may bring into the world. That has a huge effect...Niahlism is a very real issue. We are watching before our eyes AI becoming more powerful and advanced, we are warned by leading figures, one day in the not too distant future, that they could take over humans. Many are already seeing jobs cut in favour of machines. It's not just some mamby pamby generation. We're in the middle of some seismic shifts right now for mankind.

It's not to say that mental health issues didn't exist, but life is infinitely less simple than say 50 years ago.


As for Statto's original post that I was indeed responding too. I did read it, and I didn't suggest that you weren't sympathetic in any way to mental health issues. But the previous sentence didn't erase the later suggestion that if you're getting paid well, "in most cases", you should be able to deal with it. Again, just fundamentally not how it works. But I don't think you'd actually stand by that either with hindsight so happy to move on. What you've said later seems more reasonable, and I imagine it was a passing comment, just one that is a very common point made by many people when talking about celebs or sport stars or indeed politicians...and as I say a point very wide of the mark.

we can agree to disagree that your previous point negates that statement entirely. For me it doesn't but what's written since shows a deeper understanding which leads me to surmise what I wrote above. If for you I'm wrong. I've no qualms there, I've no interest in going down a lengthy back and forth leading to nowhere about it today ha.

F This I'm going back to the halloween footballers thread. Hope every one is well and looking after eachother. Wether we disagree or not.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 10:20:43 PM by jayffc »