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The 64 Million Dollar question for me !

Started by Riversider, June 21, 2020, 10:45:20 AM

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Riversider

How can Wolves and Brentford continually get their recruitment right while Fulham continually get their recruitment so wrong ? Until we start getting things right off the pitch we will continue to struggle on the pitch,
How much have we wasted on Cavaleiro, Bryan and Reid ? Add on the wages and loan fee for Knockaert and you have to despair, total waste of money and that's without the likes of Anguissa and Serri (sp)
I've lost count of the times I've posted on here that we need a left back better than Targett and a right back better than Fredericks and yet all these years on were trying to get promoted with Odoi and Bryan, neither good enough to mount a serious challenge,
And finally our Manager, I look at Arsenal and I look at Fulham and the similarities are stark, both clubs have spent far more than most of their opponents and yet both clubs continue to underperform , Arsenal have got Mikel Arteta and Fulham have got Scott Parker, both clubs could do so much better than those two.

Skatzoffc

I agree. Tho it has got a tad better recently.


It's academic tho, when the coach doesn't know how to play players to their strengths.

Lol
Siblings, let us not be down on it.
One total catastrophe like this...is just the beginning !

Statto

I'm confused. Is your view that these players aren't good enough to take us up, or that the manager is doing poor and being 3rd with these players isn't good enough? I don't see logically how you can have it both ways.


Sting of the North

Quote from: Statto on June 21, 2020, 11:05:01 AM
I'm confused. Is your view that these players aren't good enough to take us up, or that the manager is doing poor and being 3rd with these players isn't good enough? I don't see logically how you can have it both ways.

:plus one:

SuffolkWhite

#4
We all want automatic promotion and certainly its frustrating that we always lose to Brentford, and teams we should be beating like Barnsley. The style of football may not be quite what we want either but if we were sitting top of the league there would be few complaints on here. Had we had Hector at the beginning of the season we would be right up there with a shout. We are 3rd with a novice Manager in his 1st full season, that's good enough for me right now. The owners are putting in money for ground improvements and are commited so what's not to like right now.

Get behind the team and Manager and reassess at the end of the season.

COYW
Guy goes into the doctor's.
"Doc, I've got a cricket ball stuck up my backside
"How's that?"
"Don't you start"

FPT

I wanted to brush onto the point of recruitment really, Brentford manage to pluck gems using their stats based recruitment on a yearly basis.

Brentford signed Said Benrahma for £1.5m, he's scored 11 goals and has 8 assists in 2855 minutes as well as 78 chances created.

Ivan Cavaleiro has scored 6 goals with 7 assists in 2718 with 62 chances created. He cost £15m.

The numbers are comparable between Ollie Watkins and Aleksandar Mitrovic as well, and the numbers in terms of creativity favours Ollie Watkins whilst he's scored 1 fewer goal but had close to 40 fewer shots. Ollie Watkins cost less than £2m.

In the past few years they've plucked, seasoned and sold Jack O'Connell and John Egan (both now in the Premier League with Sheffield United), Romaine Sawyers (freebie from Walsall, sold on and now a key figure in midfield for WBA), doubled their money on Dan Bentley in three years before upgrading in David Raya (another £3m bargain - they'll profit there), Jota was signed for about £1m and sold to Birmingham 3 years later for about £7m, Chris Mepham came through the academy and was sold to Bournemouth for £12m, Ryan Woods was signed for £1m, 4 years of good service later they got £6.5m. Ezri Konsa was signed for £2.5m from Charlton and 12 months later was sold on for £12m and Neal Maupay was the peak of this process by being bought for £1.6m, scored 41 goals in two years and sold for £20m. This is what's paying for their stadium and during all of this they've remained competitive and pushing for play off places, and Maupay's sale allowed them to spend a bit more this summer and make their playoff ambitions far more aggressive.

Though despite all this, I don't think our recruitment was bad this past summer, but I do think our coaching is inferior this season. Slav would've dreamed for the front three options of this squad in every year all but maybe the final six months of the promotion campaign where Targett allowed him to push Sess forward and Mitro was an actual forward for the first time that season.

Wolves is slightly different given the influence Jorge Mendes has over there but I also think Nuno is a phenomenal coach.


filham

I agree we should get behind our players and save our critical comments more until the end of the season or when promotion becomes impossible.

However that game yesterday did show up a contrast between Brentford's recruitment and our own.
Mitro and Hector were great signings but we have spent millions on other players in the last two seasons and I am finding it difficult to name a real success.

Woolly Mammoth

Quote from: Riversider on June 21, 2020, 10:45:20 AM
How can Wolves and Brentford continually get their recruitment right while Fulham continually get their recruitment so wrong ? Until we start getting things right off the pitch we will continue to struggle on the pitch,
How much have we wasted on Cavaleiro, Bryan and Reid ? Add on the wages and loan fee for Knockaert and you have to despair, total waste of money and that's without the likes of Anguissa and Serri (sp)
I've lost count of the times I've posted on here that we need a left back better than Targett and a right back better than Fredericks and yet all these years on were trying to get promoted with Odoi and Bryan, neither good enough to mount a serious challenge,
And finally our Manager, I look at Arsenal and I look at Fulham and the similarities are stark, both clubs have spent far more than most of their opponents and yet both clubs continue to underperform , Arsenal have got Mikel Arteta and Fulham have got Scott Parker, both clubs could do so much better than those two.

The answer might just lie with our Crack Recruitment Unit or is it Cracked, led by the owners son who are nowhere as good as the professionals from Brentford and Wolves, but by now everyone should know that anyway.
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘

Never forget your Roots.

FulhamStu

Could it be also that our players are on such great contracts that they are sitting fat and happy.  Brentford's players are more hungry as they are playing to improve themselves in order to gain much better contracts normally at other clubs.   Is Cairney just too comfortable and Cav a party animal ?


alfie

Quote from: Riversider on June 21, 2020, 10:45:20 AM
How can Wolves and Brentford continually get their recruitment right while Fulham continually get their recruitment so wrong ? Until we start getting things right off the pitch we will continue to struggle on the pitch,
How much have we wasted on Cavaleiro, Bryan and Reid ? Add on the wages and loan fee for Knockaert and you have to despair, total waste of money and that's without the likes of Anguissa and Serri (sp)
I've lost count of the times I've posted on here that we need a left back better than Targett and a right back better than Fredericks and yet all these years on were trying to get promoted with Odoi and Bryan, neither good enough to mount a serious challenge,
And finally our Manager, I look at Arsenal and I look at Fulham and the similarities are stark, both clubs have spent far more than most of their opponents and yet both clubs continue to underperform , Arsenal have got Mikel Arteta and Fulham have got Scott Parker, both clubs could do so much better than those two.
So who are these better left and right backs, where are they available, do they want to come here. ?
Story of my life
"I was looking back to see if she was looking back to see if i was looking back at her"
Sadly she wasn't

ALG01

we have been through this lots of times as an introverted thing but when we look at brentford and wolves the main difference is they have top/experienced profesionals running things, we have a poor amateur that has bags of money and loads of enthusiasm but has not the first idea what it is all about.

his recent 30 minute interview on the official website was proof positive he is clueless.  I do not mean to have a go at him for his love of the club and good intent, that is without question. but his arrogance in remaining in situ for a job he spectacularly unqualified is holding us back big time.

that is the difference

H4usuallysitting

I think Mr Parker summed it up about Brentford when he said, (about a Brentford player, being brought in at short notice)... "They always replace a player with the same sort of player".... I take this as they play a certain way, and everyone knows there job..... A bit like Mr Roy, that's what he did with us


General

Distilled simply into three areas

1) We have a largely untested manager as our manager. Parker may be getting us in third with this squad and third in the championship is great in many ways, but, in all reality someone with more experience and who knows the league better would simply be expected to get better results. Almost all of our players have dominated this league with their respective teams before joining us. We have lost a lot of points against teams with smaller budgets and less able players. Part of being a manager is man management and players and the squad is underperforming, we should be walking this league. I know it's a very confident statement, but honestly we have lost a lot of points (points that would have us out in the lead) where we shouldn't have. 6 points of Barnsley for instance.

2) We have Tony Khan running things - he's dettached from the club didn't know much about Football before he joined and hasn't committed himself since to really getting the necessary understanding of both the club and the football management style of things.

3) Brentford's academy is unique and pretty special. They go for the top academy dropouts from the premier league who get let go and they give them a second chance and bring them into their first team as they got rid of their academy a few years ago. It's been a masterstroke from them and has shown what concerted effort and thought into developing the club properly.

Jims Dentist

Quote from: FPT on June 21, 2020, 12:59:15 PM
I wanted to brush onto the point of recruitment really, Brentford manage to pluck gems using their stats based recruitment on a yearly basis.

Brentford signed Said Benrahma for £1.5m, he's scored 11 goals and has 8 assists in 2855 minutes as well as 78 chances created.

Ivan Cavaleiro has scored 6 goals with 7 assists in 2718 with 62 chances created. He cost £15m.

The numbers are comparable between Ollie Watkins and Aleksandar Mitrovic as well, and the numbers in terms of creativity favours Ollie Watkins whilst he's scored 1 fewer goal but had close to 40 fewer shots. Ollie Watkins cost less than £2m.

In the past few years they've plucked, seasoned and sold Jack O'Connell and John Egan (both now in the Premier League with Sheffield United), Romaine Sawyers (freebie from Walsall, sold on and now a key figure in midfield for WBA), doubled their money on Dan Bentley in three years before upgrading in David Raya (another £3m bargain - they'll profit there), Jota was signed for about £1m and sold to Birmingham 3 years later for about £7m, Chris Mepham came through the academy and was sold to Bournemouth for £12m, Ryan Woods was signed for £1m, 4 years of good service later they got £6.5m. Ezri Konsa was signed for £2.5m from Charlton and 12 months later was sold on for £12m and Neal Maupay was the peak of this process by being bought for £1.6m, scored 41 goals in two years and sold for £20m. This is what's paying for their stadium and during all of this they've remained competitive and pushing for play off places, and Maupay's sale allowed them to spend a bit more this summer and make their playoff ambitions far more aggressive.

Though despite all this, I don't think our recruitment was bad this past summer, but I do think our coaching is inferior this season. Slav would've dreamed for the front three options of this squad in every year all but maybe the final six months of the promotion campaign where Targett allowed him to push Sess forward and Mitro was an actual forward for the first time that season.

Wolves is slightly different given the influence Jorge Mendes has over there but I also think Nuno is a phenomenal coach.
So So right what more can you add to that.

Jims Dentist

Quote from: ALG01 on June 21, 2020, 10:25:52 PM
we have been through this lots of times as an introverted thing but when we look at brentford and wolves the main difference is they have top/experienced profesionals running things, we have a poor  amateur that has bags of money and loads of enthusiasm but has not the first idea what it is all about.

his recent 30 minute interview on the official website was proof positive he is clueless.  I do not mean to have a go at him for his love of the club and good intent, that is without question. but his arrogance in remaining in situ for a job he spectacularly unqualified is holding us back big time.

that is the difference
Very well said ALG.


Woolly Mammoth

Quote from: General on June 22, 2020, 12:27:43 AM
Distilled simply into three areas

1) We have a largely untested manager as our manager. Parker may be getting us in third with this squad and third in the championship is great in many ways, but, in all reality someone with more experience and who knows the league better would simply be expected to get better results. Almost all of our players have dominated this league with their respective teams before joining us. We have lost a lot of points against teams with smaller budgets and less able players. Part of being a manager is man management and players and the squad is underperforming, we should be walking this league. I know it's a very confident statement, but honestly we have lost a lot of points (points that would have us out in the lead) where we shouldn't have. 6 points of Barnsley for instance.

2) We have Tony Khan running things - he's dettached from the club didn't know much about Football before he joined and hasn't committed himself since to really getting the necessary understanding of both the club and the football management style of things.

3) Brentford's academy is unique and pretty special. They go for the top academy dropouts from the premier league who get let go and they give them a second chance and bring them into their first team as they got rid of their academy a few years ago. It's been a masterstroke from them and has shown what concerted effort and thought into developing the club properly.

I agree and well said.
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘

Never forget your Roots.

Woolly Mammoth

Quote from: ALG01 on June 21, 2020, 10:25:52 PM
we have been through this lots of times as an introverted thing but when we look at brentford and wolves the main difference is they have top/experienced profesionals running things, we have a poor amateur that has bags of money and loads of enthusiasm but has not the first idea what it is all about.

his recent 30 minute interview on the official website was proof positive he is clueless.  I do not mean to have a go at him for his love of the club and good intent, that is without question. but his arrogance in remaining in situ for a job he spectacularly unqualified is holding us back big time.

that is the difference

Precisely
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘

Never forget your Roots.

colinwhite

Quote from: Statto on June 21, 2020, 11:05:01 AM
I'm confused. Is your view that these players aren't good enough to take us up, or that the manager is doing poor and being 3rd with these players isn't good enough? I don't see logically how you can have it both ways.

Agree Statto, Also getting really fed up with the we have by far the best squad in the division argument at the same time as is recruitment is rubbish. We play well and its because we have such a strong squad,badly and its because parker cant get the best out of the players. Neither of these double sided catch 22 arguments do anything to convince me of the point being made.


The Rational Fan

#18
We could blame Tony Khan for the not providing the squad to beat against Forest (H&A), WBA (H&A),  Brentford (H&A), Leeds(H&A), Cardiff (A), Swansea (A), Millwall (A), Derby (A) and Bristol City (A). But, we also lost points in many other games including Barnsley (H&A), Charlton (H&A) and Luton (H) where Tony Khan provided a squad easily good enough to win, plus apart from Leeds (H) Parker hasn't won many games where we had a similar squad to the other team.

We have dropped 17 points to the bottom six teams in the Championship, in comparison Leeds have only dropped 3 points to the bottom six teams in the Championship, thats providing Leeds with a 14 point advantage to us. Fulham dropped fewer points to bottom seven teams in the Premier League in 18/19 than we dropped to the bottom six of the Championship 19/20. In conclusion, the squad could be better for the money spent but the squad is good enough to get 72 points in 38 games and that hasn't been achieved.

Southdowns White

Maybe whoever we have looking for players are not looking in the right place, at players who can be improved and develop, we try and go for someone who is the finished article from a lower European league. Brentford seem to repeatedly buy develop and sell. We do develop our academy players  but they either fail or are sold on to bigger clubs before they get a chance to play, Ryan Sessegnon a slight exception to that as he did give us a couple of good seasons play.