Andy Keys and Richard Gray ......it's all in the delivery

[FatFreddysCat]

This seems to be a storm in a teacup.

Yes it was unprofessional but there is a lot worse that has been seen and heard on TV. It doesn't strike me as particularly malicious particularly compared to what the ladies in question have no doubt heard in football stadiums the length and breadth of the country.

Secondly there was enough nudging and winking when MOTD had the first female commentator a couple of years ago, so this all seems quite hypocritical. If anything Gray and Keys should probably be apologising to the lineswoman and Karen Brady and then leave it at that.

Completely agree with Jimpav.  And in addition, for anyone who really cares, the objectification of women that is rampant in society and on this forum is far more distasteful and destructive than a former footballer who doesnt like the idea of a female lino.  The worst thing the two said was "kenny will go potty",  really didnt need that image in my head.

So believing that women are inferior to men is an acceptable position, but thinking that a woman is beautiful is 'distasteful and destructive'?

Are you based in the Bible Belt sir?

Hahaha how very sexist of you too think that because someone posts on a football forum that they are a bloke, as you can see from a later post that Duffy is a bird, who manages to post on here inbetween hoovering and making the dinner for the breadwinner  :dft012:

[WhiteJC]

This seems to be a storm in a teacup.

Yes it was unprofessional but there is a lot worse that has been seen and heard on TV. It doesn't strike me as particularly malicious particularly compared to what the ladies in question have no doubt heard in football stadiums the length and breadth of the country.

Secondly there was enough nudging and winking when MOTD had the first female commentator a couple of years ago, so this all seems quite hypocritical. If anything Gray and Keys should probably be apologising to the lineswoman and Karen Brady and then leave it at that.

Completely agree with Jimpav.  And in addition, for anyone who really cares, the objectification of women that is rampant in society and on this forum is far more distasteful and destructive than a former footballer who doesnt like the idea of a female lino.  The worst thing the two said was "kenny will go potty",  really didnt need that image in my head.

So believing that women are inferior to men is an acceptable position, but thinking that a woman is beautiful is 'distasteful and destructive'?

Are you based in the Bible Belt sir?

AlFayedschequebook, I'm not a sir and I don't live in the bible belt.  I also don't equate not wanting women on the football pitch to thinking women are inferior to men, although I wouldn't be surprised if those two gents do think that.  I know they said the thing about not "understanding offsides", but frankly I've heard similar comments from English commentators during the World Cup about male referees and linesmen that are from countries without a major football league.  And these comments were intended for mass public consumption and to be taken seriously. 

Similarly, I don't believe thinking women are beautiful is the same as the sexual objectification of women.  It is possible to think the former without doing the latter.  And as far as which is more distasteful and destructive I can offer this example.  When I was in my twenties, I was a female engineer working in the male dominated world of casting foundries.  One time a male engineer told me in all sincerity that the reason female engineers were not as good as their male counterparts was because the right side of a woman's brain is smaller.  Well that comment didn't bother me at all because I could do something about it by working hard and demonstrating that what he thought was wrong or irrelevant.  In contrast, I worked in a casting foundry near Leeds in which almost every worker on the shop floor had pictures of naked women plastered all over their workspace.  Well on the outside I dealt with it, even informing the ones with a sense of humour that perhaps they wouldn't be producing so much scrap if they weren't staring at those pictures all day, but I would be lying if I said working in that environment wasn't more intimidating or difficult in terms of doing my job.  There was really no constructive way I could react to it. 

Now maybe I'm alone in that regard or overly sensitive, but judging from the number of teenage anorexics, the popularity of boob jobs, and the plethora of plastic surgery on display in the ever popular women over 40 thread, I'm betting my company is quite vast.  And it is all demonstrative of a trend I consider destructive and something that at some point needs to be reigned in.  Much the way your namesake thinks salary caps are in order for the over all well-being of the prem.  I was merely making a point and wasn't the only one to claim a bit of hypocrisy had crept in to the issue. It was not a judgment of any posters or this forum.  I fully realize I have no business posting on a mostly male football forum if I don't expect to see some female T&A.  Although I actually only  visit here for the food/cooking thread and the hope that someday I can have an NFR talk with someone about how hot Jonathan Spector is.

who said Americans don't do irony  :clap_hands:

[WHITEwitch]

This seems to be a storm in a teacup.

Yes it was unprofessional but there is a lot worse that has been seen and heard on TV. It doesn't strike me as particularly malicious particularly compared to what the ladies in question have no doubt heard in football stadiums the length and breadth of the country.

Secondly there was enough nudging and winking when MOTD had the first female commentator a couple of years ago, so this all seems quite hypocritical. If anything Gray and Keys should probably be apologising to the lineswoman and Karen Brady and then leave it at that.

Completely agree with Jimpav.  And in addition, for anyone who really cares, the objectification of women that is rampant in society and on this forum is far more distasteful and destructive than a former footballer who doesnt like the idea of a female lino.  The worst thing the two said was "kenny will go potty",  really didnt need that image in my head.

So believing that women are inferior to men is an acceptable position, but thinking that a woman is beautiful is 'distasteful and destructive'?

Are you based in the Bible Belt sir?

AlFayedschequebook, I'm not a sir and I don't live in the bible belt.  I also don't equate not wanting women on the football pitch to thinking women are inferior to men, although I wouldn't be surprised if those two gents do think that.  I know they said the thing about not "understanding offsides", but frankly I've heard similar comments from English commentators during the World Cup about male referees and linesmen that are from countries without a major football league.  And these comments were intended for mass public consumption and to be taken seriously. 

Similarly, I don't believe thinking women are beautiful is the same as the sexual objectification of women.  It is possible to think the former without doing the latter.  And as far as which is more distasteful and destructive I can offer this example.  When I was in my twenties, I was a female engineer working in the male dominated world of casting foundries.  One time a male engineer told me in all sincerity that the reason female engineers were not as good as their male counterparts was because the right side of a woman's brain is smaller.  Well that comment didn't bother me at all because I could do something about it by working hard and demonstrating that what he thought was wrong or irrelevant.  In contrast, I worked in a casting foundry near Leeds in which almost every worker on the shop floor had pictures of naked women plastered all over their workspace.  Well on the outside I dealt with it, even informing the ones with a sense of humour that perhaps they wouldn't be producing so much scrap if they weren't staring at those pictures all day, but I would be lying if I said working in that environment wasn't more intimidating or difficult in terms of doing my job.  There was really no constructive way I could react to it. 

Now maybe I'm alone in that regard or overly sensitive, but judging from the number of teenage anorexics, the popularity of boob jobs, and the plethora of plastic surgery on display in the ever popular women over 40 thread, I'm betting my company is quite vast.  And it is all demonstrative of a trend I consider destructive and something that at some point needs to be reigned in.  Much the way your namesake thinks salary caps are in order for the over all well-being of the prem.  I was merely making a point and wasn't the only one to claim a bit of hypocrisy had crept in to the issue. It was not a judgment of any posters or this forum.  I fully realize I have no business posting on a mostly male football forum if I don't expect to see some female T&A.  Although I actually only  visit here for the food/cooking thread and the hope that someday I can have an NFR talk with someone about how hot Jonathan Spector is.

:Sparkyticus: Beautifully put.  Absolutely with you on this one.

[duffbeer]

WHITEwitch, I'm truly flattered that you're with me on this.

And look who else is with us, Dempsey also thinks Jonathan is a hottie.

[Me-ate-Live, innit??]

Oi Frady-Cat .............I hadn't pegged you for a Pikie ............don't forget to watch :
My big Fat Gipsy Wedding
9PM channel 4

Anything slightly iffy gets blow to hell by the British Media as there is always outrage among the  chattering classes .....................................but Hay  ...................................those two were shafted good and proper .

My point was , if their conversation  was light /funny   it would never have made it into the public domain


Personally,  I do not mind Grey he was a good player.  However, Keys is  the swetty-handed, tittery bloke that got over promoted and is waiting  to be found out .............................we all have worked with one of those

Their conversation was very bleak, dull, dead cringy  .............................................................and  as pundits they  SHOULD know the number of women  (Men -in Black ) employed by the Sweet F All    

[FatFreddysCat]

The good thing to come out of all this is that there will be lots of legal stuff going on in the background so some bird will probably get loads of overtime doing the photo copying  :54:

[ImperialWhite]

This seems to be a storm in a teacup.

Yes it was unprofessional but there is a lot worse that has been seen and heard on TV. It doesn't strike me as particularly malicious particularly compared to what the ladies in question have no doubt heard in football stadiums the length and breadth of the country.

Secondly there was enough nudging and winking when MOTD had the first female commentator a couple of years ago, so this all seems quite hypocritical. If anything Gray and Keys should probably be apologising to the lineswoman and Karen Brady and then leave it at that.

Completely agree with Jimpav.  And in addition, for anyone who really cares, the objectification of women that is rampant in society and on this forum is far more distasteful and destructive than a former footballer who doesnt like the idea of a female lino.  The worst thing the two said was "kenny will go potty",  really didnt need that image in my head.

So believing that women are inferior to men is an acceptable position, but thinking that a woman is beautiful is 'distasteful and destructive'?

Are you based in the Bible Belt sir?

AlFayedschequebook, I'm not a sir and I don't live in the bible belt.  I also don't equate not wanting women on the football pitch to thinking women are inferior to men, although I wouldn't be surprised if those two gents do think that.  I know they said the thing about not "understanding offsides", but frankly I've heard similar comments from English commentators during the World Cup about male referees and linesmen that are from countries without a major football league.  And these comments were intended for mass public consumption and to be taken seriously. 

Similarly, I don't believe thinking women are beautiful is the same as the sexual objectification of women.  It is possible to think the former without doing the latter.  And as far as which is more distasteful and destructive I can offer this example.  When I was in my twenties, I was a female engineer working in the male dominated world of casting foundries.  One time a male engineer told me in all sincerity that the reason female engineers were not as good as their male counterparts was because the right side of a woman's brain is smaller.  Well that comment didn't bother me at all because I could do something about it by working hard and demonstrating that what he thought was wrong or irrelevant.  In contrast, I worked in a casting foundry near Leeds in which almost every worker on the shop floor had pictures of naked women plastered all over their workspace.  Well on the outside I dealt with it, even informing the ones with a sense of humour that perhaps they wouldn't be producing so much scrap if they weren't staring at those pictures all day, but I would be lying if I said working in that environment wasn't more intimidating or difficult in terms of doing my job.  There was really no constructive way I could react to it. 

Now maybe I'm alone in that regard or overly sensitive, but judging from the number of teenage anorexics, the popularity of boob jobs, and the plethora of plastic surgery on display in the ever popular women over 40 thread, I'm betting my company is quite vast.  And it is all demonstrative of a trend I consider destructive and something that at some point needs to be reigned in.  Much the way your namesake thinks salary caps are in order for the over all well-being of the prem.  I was merely making a point and wasn't the only one to claim a bit of hypocrisy had crept in to the issue. It was not a judgment of any posters or this forum.  I fully realize I have no business posting on a mostly male football forum if I don't expect to see some female T&A.  Although I actually only  visit here for the food/cooking thread and the hope that someday I can have an NFR talk with someone about how hot Jonathan Spector is.

Thankyou for writing that, you make some really good points.

However, I disagree with you in the first paragraph. I thought what they said was offensive, and should you substitute "women" for "black people" they would have been sacked before the morning. I think this sacking sends an important message that sexism is not acceptable in football.

[duffbeer]

The good thing to come out of all this is that there will be lots of legal stuff going on in the background so some bird will probably get loads of overtime doing the photo copying  :54:

  :011:

[Me-ate-Live, innit??]

...............and I hope she has small feet  :038:

[White Noise]

Murdoch has buried him properly. Brace yourself for more revelations about Mr Gray when he decides to pursue an unfair dismissal case against Sky.

[AlFayedsChequebook]

This seems to be a storm in a teacup.

Yes it was unprofessional but there is a lot worse that has been seen and heard on TV. It doesn't strike me as particularly malicious particularly compared to what the ladies in question have no doubt heard in football stadiums the length and breadth of the country.

Secondly there was enough nudging and winking when MOTD had the first female commentator a couple of years ago, so this all seems quite hypocritical. If anything Gray and Keys should probably be apologising to the lineswoman and Karen Brady and then leave it at that.

Completely agree with Jimpav.  And in addition, for anyone who really cares, the objectification of women that is rampant in society and on this forum is far more distasteful and destructive than a former footballer who doesnt like the idea of a female lino.  The worst thing the two said was "kenny will go potty",  really didnt need that image in my head.

So believing that women are inferior to men is an acceptable position, but thinking that a woman is beautiful is 'distasteful and destructive'?

Are you based in the Bible Belt sir?

AlFayedschequebook, I'm not a sir and I don't live in the bible belt.  I also don't equate not wanting women on the football pitch to thinking women are inferior to men, although I wouldn't be surprised if those two gents do think that.  I know they said the thing about not "understanding offsides", but frankly I've heard similar comments from English commentators during the World Cup about male referees and linesmen that are from countries without a major football league.  And these comments were intended for mass public consumption and to be taken seriously. 

Similarly, I don't believe thinking women are beautiful is the same as the sexual objectification of women.  It is possible to think the former without doing the latter.  And as far as which is more distasteful and destructive I can offer this example.  When I was in my twenties, I was a female engineer working in the male dominated world of casting foundries.  One time a male engineer told me in all sincerity that the reason female engineers were not as good as their male counterparts was because the right side of a woman's brain is smaller.  Well that comment didn't bother me at all because I could do something about it by working hard and demonstrating that what he thought was wrong or irrelevant.  In contrast, I worked in a casting foundry near Leeds in which almost every worker on the shop floor had pictures of naked women plastered all over their workspace.  Well on the outside I dealt with it, even informing the ones with a sense of humour that perhaps they wouldn't be producing so much scrap if they weren't staring at those pictures all day, but I would be lying if I said working in that environment wasn't more intimidating or difficult in terms of doing my job.  There was really no constructive way I could react to it. 

Now maybe I'm alone in that regard or overly sensitive, but judging from the number of teenage anorexics, the popularity of boob jobs, and the plethora of plastic surgery on display in the ever popular women over 40 thread, I'm betting my company is quite vast.  And it is all demonstrative of a trend I consider destructive and something that at some point needs to be reigned in.  Much the way your namesake thinks salary caps are in order for the over all well-being of the prem.  I was merely making a point and wasn't the only one to claim a bit of hypocrisy had crept in to the issue. It was not a judgment of any posters or this forum.  I fully realize I have no business posting on a mostly male football forum if I don't expect to see some female T&A.  Although I actually only  visit here for the food/cooking thread and the hope that someday I can have an NFR talk with someone about how hot Jonathan Spector is.

Apologies for assuming you were a gent, the name duffbeer got me!

Whilst I agree in general with what you say, and you have personal experience of discrimination/sexism there is not really a way for me to respond without sounding like a total idiot, but here it goes.

I think Andy Gray needed to be sacked because it was a symbolic gesture more than anything. The 'man' had been caught red handed saying completely incorrect things. It is sad to think, but I am sure there is a section of the population out there who take what Mr.Gray says as gospel so Sky sent a real message to those who think that women and football don't mix.

As for the objectification of women, whilst it is obviously a serious issue, I am not sure if this context is right to bring it up in. You mention the women over 40 thread and say you are not judging people on this forum but surely that is precisely what you are doing by saying that hipocrisy has crept in.

[White Noise]

Now 'The Mirror' turn their guns on Richard Keys -

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Richard-Keys-Andy-Gray-sexism-NEW-video-Did-you-smash-it-NEW-Richard-Keys-Sky-Sports-video-sparks-ANOTHER-row-watch-it-here-article682265.html

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/blogs/mirror-football-blog/Andy-Gray-sacked-How-to-replace-Sky-Sports-sexists-Richard-Keys-and-Gray-with-Jamie-Redknapp-Ian-Holloway-Gary-Neville-Ben-Shepherd-Robbie-Savage-Graeme-Souness-Alan-Green-Kelly-Cates-Claire-Tomlinson-as-replacements-article681589.html

[b+w geezer]

Just catching up on this and nothing to say that's not been said, but would just like to congratulate Duffbeer on her superlative response #39.

[WHITEwitch]

The good thing to come out of all this is that there will be lots of legal stuff going on in the background so some bird will probably get loads of overtime doing the photo copying  :54:

Aw puss I am desperately trying to think of something to bite with.  You must be SO cold sitting on that river bank..............

[AlFayedsChequebook]

Interesting point of view from the women who work there:

'There's been a culture of bullying and sexism at Sky for a long time'
Three women who held prominent positions at Sky Sports describe a 'lads' club' and a 'climate of fear'

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Comments (80)

Matt Scott
The Guardian,    Wednesday 26 January 2011
Article history

Richard Keys and Andy Gray were part of a Sky Sports culture which 'looked down' on women, claim insiders. Photograph: Mike Egerton/Empics Sport
The only surprise about the events leading to Andy Gray's sacking as the most famous voice in football yesterday was that he had not made a similar gaffe in public before. That is the view of three women who have all held frontline roles at Sky Sports.

Fearing repercussions that could harm their careers if they were identified, the three spoke to the Guardian on condition of anonymity. But despite talking separately, their views echoed each other's; each describing the bullying and sexist culture they feel Gray and his co-presenter, Richard Keys, have fostered.

One former Sky journalist said: "It came as absolutely no surprise to me to see this. The surprise is that we haven't seen more. It's the kind of language and vocabulary that is used within the Sky football department all the time."

Another, who still works for Sky, said: "There are many stories of their shocking behaviour. [Gray and Keys] are hated by the crews. It's a climate of fear pervading. But as long as everyone is laughing and it's a joke it's all right isn't it? I believe sexism is systemic and not openly challenged but goes underground or disguised as jokes or 'just banter'."

The third separately cited how "just banter" is claimed as a defence, and explained why that claim holds no water. "Live football is well known as something everyone wants to work on. But no one wants to work with those two. They took the piss out of a runner for having no money. It's nasty bullying with an edge. It's not just banter."

All three women agree that Barney Francis, who has been managing director of Sky Sports since his appointment 18 months ago, has improved matters. His decision yesterday summarily to dismiss Gray shows that he will scarcely indulge a chauvinistic culture any longer. One said: "There has been a culture of bullying and sexism around Sky for a very long time, but recently Sky have been managing the bullying a lot better through changes in management. There were rumours of people being told off and that bullying behaviour was unacceptable."

Yet despite the positive steps made by Francis, the women all expressed a feeling that there must be more widespread surgery to eradicate what they described as a patriarchy that limits women's promotion prospects. "There's this blokey vibe and it's like a lads' club," said one. "At the BBC the head of sport is Barbara Slater. Sky are a long way from that situation.

"During my time at Sky Sports News it wasn't hidden that women were appointed to present on it primarily because of the way they looked. You can see how Andy and Richard are behaving like that because the people at the top have employed people without any experience. Clearly that's sexist and it means at Sky you are always looked down on as a woman involved in sport, full stop."

That view chimed with another's view. She said: "You'd get bosses saying, 'It's just fruit on the barrow.' I found it a very sexist working environment. The production staff found it incredibly frustrating: they're younger for a start than the management.

"But it permeated through the whole culture. When Sky Sports News first started the girls were in suits. Sky was still about the image but they wanted women who were interested in sport. "Any monkey can read an autocue and you can't build passion for what you do from nothing. But if you're a woman you were there as decoration. Anything else was a bonus. It's not that there is a criterion about how the girls look. It's that it is the main criterion."

Sky told the Guardian that it hires its presenters principally for their abilities as journalists and presenters. Nonetheless, one of the former Sky journalists pointed out that the fact that Gray and Keys's unreconstructed comments were leaked into the public domain reflects the glee that Sky employees would feel at their downfall.

"I think deep down Richard and Andy are just bullies," she said. "They bully new men in the game as well. It's how they operate. They don't have many friends there but after 20 years they've always been at the top of the game and earning a ridiculous amount of money, so I guess who's laughing?

"But they have ruled the roost for a long time and upset people for a long time. They got into bother with someone who had a schadenfreude motive. I am just surprised that you have a broadcaster with experience of 20 years talking like that in front of a mic and not expecting it to get out. It was not the first time they were caught saying things they shouldn't say. They think they can get away with murder. How arrogant."

A Sky spokesman said last night: "There was evidence at the weekend and we took action. Today there has been new evidence and we have taken entirely appropriate action. If people are saying there is a culture of sexism here that shows we don't tolerate it."

[White Noise]

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Sky-Sports-Richard-Keys-sexist-comments-totally-out-of-character-says-daughter-Jemma-Keys-article682503.html

[LRCN]

when sky use sex to sell sky with presenters like georgie thompson i dont see how they can take the moral highground. not only that but really what they got sacked for is fairly little on the face of it,i know ive said stuff to girls thats just as 'bad' and got some in return but its all tongue in cheek, unless of course they actually meant it.

but thank f*ck hes gone!

[AlFayedsChequebook]

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Sky-Sports-Richard-Keys-sexist-comments-totally-out-of-character-says-daughter-Jemma-Keys-article682503.html

'I have loads of black friends'

[White Noise]

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Sky-Sports-Richard-Keys-sexist-comments-totally-out-of-character-says-daughter-Jemma-Keys-article682503.html

'I have loads of black friends'

Favoured phrase of the bigot. I also like 'its political correctness gone mad'. Still, you have got to say Richard Keys' daughter is a looker. Out of ten I'd give her one.

[ImperialWhite]

Richard Keys David Brent : How could I hate women? My mum's one.