Poll
Question:
Parker out?
Option 1: Parker Out!
votes: 97
Option 2: Give him more time
votes: 74
That is all.
Half a season of mediocrity and underperforming.
Time to go.
Other teams have in the past changed their managers and achieved promotion, we have to as well.
We have supposedly got the best attack in the Championship, whats it been doing? Defence is no better than last year. Wrong selections for the last 2 games. We wont win against Leeds and that will be 4 losses in a row.....
It never works out when a new manager takes a team in the Championship, why oh why do we never learn...
Reluctantly coming to the same conclusion.Bring back Joka- the gamble has failed.
I think there is little doubt that we are not playing up to the expectancy. I know what I would like to happen but it aint never gunna..... Slav...
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Chris Hughton in
His tactics dont work. Thats it. Should never have been given the job full time to begin with, as it was imperative that we get promoted this season. (which the club knew with all the loans and fairly high fees paid in he summer.
Not getting promotion would be a disaster from a financial standpoint, and will almost certainly mean losing Mitrovic
+one
Time to go!! Parker has to be sacked. No show today and lucky to lose 1-0. Pathetic.
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 14, 2019, 05:01:58 PM
Half a season of mediocrity and underperforming.
Time to go.
This. Nothing against the man. He's just not good enough for where we need to be.
Out. I wonder what Brentford's budget is compared to Fulham? Lucky to only lose 1-0.
Given his current mansion-building (next door to Terry) in Oxshott, he wont be selling the Big Issue any time soon. Parker out!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
+1
I've seen enough. Time for him to go.
I'm on the fence but how did West Brom do last year when they were in the same situation
I might offend some with this post, ah give him time he's a new manager, ahh we are still in the play off places....
His tactics are useless and we are under performing, some people will argue against changing manger to someone like Chris Hughton as he might win games but not play attractive football, attractive football to me is winning football matches, end of! I would choose that any day over Parker's boring ineffective tactics!
Quote from: Worcesterwhite on December 14, 2019, 05:13:51 PM
I might offend some with this post, ah give him time he's a new manager, ahh we are still in the play off places....
His tactics are useless and we are under performing, some people will argue against changing manger to someone like Chris Hughton as he might win games but not play attractive football, attractive football to me is winning football matches, end of! I would choose that any day over Parker's boring ineffective tactics!
0001.jpeg :plus one:
I'd like Karanka. Would be a good appointment I think and would back him to take us up!
Quote from: JoelH5 on December 14, 2019, 05:07:09 PM
Chris Hughton in
That would be my choice at the moment
Agree he has to go but please not Hughton
Someone send Khan's boat to Qatar and get you know who back!
It would make my year.
Unbalanced team - (yes had injuries) but unbalanced tactics
No sense of urgency
Weak individual efforts by many of the players
Don't seem to gel together
Knockaert pathetic - send him back to BHA
Mitro - how is he supposed to get in to the game with those tactics ?
Not good enough. Not impressed.
Quote from: @jolslover on December 14, 2019, 05:15:20 PM
I'd like Karanka. Would be a good appointment I think and would back him to take us up!
I wouldn't argue with that shout atleast he can organise a team
Still not sure what Parker's tactics are. Goes back to what I was saying last season with regards identity.
It has to happen this week, as he's going to sack the entire Jacksonville Jaguars coaching staff in a couple of weeks, so will be preoccupied with that recruitment after Christmas.
Gives whoever the new manager is a look before the transfer window aswell to see what we can change
Quote from: Baszab on December 14, 2019, 05:17:19 PM
Unbalanced team - (yes had injuries) but unbalanced tactics
No sense of urgency
Weak individual efforts by many of the players
Don't seem to gel together
Knockaert pathetic - send him back to BHA
Mitro - how is he supposed to get in to the game with those tactics ?
Yeah but Knockaert has previously been Champ player of the season - you can't just send back a player of his quality
He needs a manager than can manage a Maverick - put their arm around him and encourage him. Pearson did it, Hughton did it... Him failing is not because he isn't a great footballer but because he doesn't feel motivated
If I was Khan I'd be beginning to get a bit tired of constantly having to find new managers and sort Fulham out. It just keeps not working out and it must take up a lot of his time as we know his son is hardly switched on. I hope he isn't getting fed up!
Get rid now and bring someone in who can take advantage of the January window. Parker is not only inexperienced he is stubborn as well. It's almost like Fulham are an experiment for him and if it doesn't work so what? Despite him playing for us I don't get the feeling he has any particular love for the club but he's just using us as a stepping stone. I get there's no loyalty n football but I just think he's experimenting at our expense. Just my opinion of course.
No comment. I'll get stick from a few posters if I do....
There are plenty of good choices out, some may not be so popular but would get this team motivated and playing to its strengths, Hughton, Warnock, Karanka, maybe even more controversial but even allardyce would get this team winning!!!
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 14, 2019, 05:23:20 PM
No comment. I'll get stick from a few posters if I do....
Please do! Think we probably just need to reflect after today.
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 14, 2019, 05:23:20 PM
No comment. I'll get stick from a few posters if I do....
Only if you support Parker staying and watch us sink to new depths!!
Oi Dave! He's joking..!
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 14, 2019, 05:23:20 PM
No comment. I'll get stick from a few posters if I do....
Why? Don't hold back. It's a place for Fulham fans to express their opinions. We may not always agree on everything but the one thing that binds us is that we're all Fulham fans and only want the best for the club.
Quote from: Milo on December 14, 2019, 05:24:52 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 14, 2019, 05:23:20 PM
No comment. I'll get stick from a few posters if I do....
Please do! Think we probably just need to calm down after today.
We will all calm down once Parker is sacked.
Quote from: davew on December 14, 2019, 05:19:17 PM
Quote from: JoelH5 on December 14, 2019, 05:07:09 PM
Chris Hughton in
He would be a good choice!!
He's got 3 teams promoted from the Championship - get the guy in now.
Calls for JOka already. It's almost like I forgot that when the going tough he got found out.
I did'nt know about the Jacksonville Jaguars issues but if Khan is going to pull the plug on his choice then his 'network' had better be right on the case. The dirth of young English managers narrows the options right down to a journeyman from the merry go round or an overseas coach. Hughton no, but I get why he is mentioned, and Karanka won't inspire the changing room. What a flipping mess we are .......... again.
Quote from: Fulham 442 on December 14, 2019, 05:26:16 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 14, 2019, 05:23:20 PM
No comment. I'll get stick from a few posters if I do....
Why? Don't hold back. It's a place for Fulham fans to express their opinions. We may not always agree on everything but the one thing that binds us is that we're all Fulham fans and only want the best for the club.
And that we nearly all agree Parker out!!
Joka but this time no huge wholesale personnel changes IF we go back up? Just upgrade our CB, RB, and CM.
Quote from: Worcesterwhite on December 14, 2019, 05:31:04 PM
Quote from: Buffalo76 on December 14, 2019, 05:28:33 PM
Quote from: davew on December 14, 2019, 05:19:17 PM
Quote from: JoelH5 on December 14, 2019, 05:07:09 PM
Chris Hughton in
He would be a good choice!!
He's got 3 teams promoted from the Championship - get the guy in now.
0001.jpeg
He was also Knockhaert's manager when he was voted Championship player of the season in 2017 so could get more out of him than Parker seems to be doing.
Thinking of Kamara's goal at City in the Great escape, for the greatest goals thread, I thought of Hodgson's level of organisation, based on a sound defence.
We certainly could do with that now.
But changing the manager isn't always the answer (I don't think Hodgson is available anyway, though Big Sam might be the closest man available!) - look at last season, and , indeed, other seasons. WE seem to get worse, more times than striking lucky.
Now is the time for cool heads. We are still in the top 6, just about, and have had a lot of injuries.
I think Scott deserves more time,and sacking him now is a bit of a knee jerk response.
Who would we get anyway? I mentioned Big Sam, but would the Khans employ him? and I think many of our fans would be opposed to this.
Scott knows the players, and has developed a possession style based on Slavisa's, and i think this sstill a work in progress.
We also seem to have too many players losing form at the same time, and injuries.
The main thing is that defeats can breed lack of confidence and self belief, just as winning can have the opposite effect.
As fans, we should get behind the team and manager, whatever we think - constant criticism usually makes thing worse. Remember that Slavisa had bad runs, with many calling for his head.
Quote from: RaySmith on December 14, 2019, 05:44:22 PM
Thinking of Kamara's goal at City in the Great escape, for the greatest goals thread, I thought of Hodgson's level of organisation, based on a sound defence.
We certainly could do with that now.
But changing the manager isn't always the answer (I don't think Hodgson is available anyway, though Big Sam might be the closest man available!) - look at last season, and , indeed, other seasons. WE seem to get worse, more times than striking lucky.
Now is the time for cool heads. We are still in the top 6, just about, and have had a lot of injuries.
I think Scott deserves more time,and sacking him now is a bit of a knee jerk response.
Who would we get anyway? I mentioned Big Sam, but would the Khans employ him? and I think many of our fans would be opposed to this.
Scott knows the players, and has developed a possession style based on Slavisa's, and i think this sstill a work in progress.
We also seem to have too many players losing form at the same time, and injuries.
The main thing is that defeats can breed lack of confidence and self belief, just as winning can have the opposite effect.
As fans, we should get behind the team and manager, whatever we think - constant criticism usually makes thing worse. Remember that Slavisa had bad runs, with many calling for his head.
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I am no Parker fan and won't be upset if he goes, but think we should stick with him for the time being. We are talking about stability, but want to change managers every six months.
What doesn't make sense is that everyone wants him out because even when the team wins, the football is not pleasant on the eye. However, all the candidates proposed here (Allardyce, Hughton, Karanka) are not exactly advocates of the...beautiful game.
Parker has turned his scared pirouettes into an entire "attacking" system. No risk is too small to avoid, no pass is too telegraphed to easily cut out. Everyone has "lost their form" at the same time because the tactics are pitiful.
What a mistake signing Parker was. Awful player, awful manager. A true curse on the club. The opposite of a legend. Get him out ffs.
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on December 14, 2019, 06:15:16 PM
What a mistake signing Parker was. Awful player, awful manager. A true curse on the club. The opposite of a legend. Get him out ffs.
Got to agree with the curse reference, the only year in the last 5 He was not here we got promoted! He makes his return and we get relegated, now his big chance and the bloke hasn't a clue, get him gone and please don't bring him back again!
I feel that we should sadly sack Parker. I do hope he's learnt a lot. But for us to get promoted we need someone with experience.
And that's not Warnock. Slav back in a heartbeat.
Jacksonville Jaguars? Absolute losers are they not? But don't need to be winners due to bizarre yank sports.
Khan will never let SJ back
Lose face......
and they had a row after the Liverpool game and Khan basically told him to F off
Think his job is on the line against Leeds. Make or break moment. I like his press conference comments though, so I'm intrigued to see what the response is next weekend.
Our current record against teams in the top 8
Wins - ZERO
Draws - 2
Losses - 4
Quote from: Ordar on December 14, 2019, 06:55:11 PM
Our current record against teams in the top 8
Wins - ZERO
Draws - 2
Losses - 4
Brilliant which means we still have 2 more to lose to, at least the next 1 will only be a week away!
Even if we end up challenging for promotion I vote him out. The football he plays is utter garbage to watch.
And more importantly the players don't seem to want to play it for him now.
Quote from: Luka on December 14, 2019, 07:07:46 PM
Even if we end up challenging for promotion I vote him out. The football he plays is utter garbage to watch.
And more importantly the players don't seem to want to play it for him now.
Agreed
I said after last weekends defeat To Bristol City that Parker is the problem for me, and we've lost 2 games in the subsequent week and I would bank on us losing to Leeds.
This team have not galvanised around his style of play, which from what I can tell is sideways and backwards slow possession across the back 4 in our half. It's awful to watch and bar Millwall and the odd half we haven't put together a decent performance. It's just boring and disjointed.
Parker is too inexperienced (not his fault, our fault for hiring him) to get us out this league and I truly believe a better manager would have this team playing much better.
I like Parker, and hope one day he can become a good manager but don't want my club being the experimental ground for his education in management. There are lower clubs with lower expectations better suited for rookie managers to come in and make a name for themselves. We are a decent club, with decent players and should be aiming for high calibre managers.
Fulham seem to be influenced by the failed tactics of Pochettino, slowly passing around at the back until we lose the ball. It's far too pedantic and as someone mentioned earlier, no sense of urgency. He knows the team but doesn't know how to motivate them. As yet I am unsure whether to back him or sack and does depend on the replacement.
When we started singing "you don't know what you're doing" I fear the end is nigh
Go now please Scott. You were a limited player for us and you are a very limited coach. I wish you well, but you aren't good enough for us if we as a club have any reasonable level of ambition. You are responsible for our underperforming, whether it's tactics, motivation, organisation or anything else. The buck stops with you.
I feel he is so stubborn with the style and tactics that he will stick and lose too many winnable game.
The tide had turned for me. Mainly due to the constant picking of Onomah. It's just too much for me. Other midfielders and youngsters available. I fear he is losing the dressing room.
Time for a change.
Hughton is a good fit imo. He had PL experience and knows how to set up a defense.
For the record if Warnock came in, I would not watch another Fulham game until he was gone.
Quote from: One Martin Thomas on December 14, 2019, 05:15:34 PM
Quote from: JoelH5 on December 14, 2019, 05:07:09 PM
Chris Hughton in
That would be my choice at the moment
And Very much mine asap.
He has the experience and credentials to get the squad performing.
Also an eye for the right kind of reinforcements.
Quote from: Baszab on December 14, 2019, 07:56:22 PM
When we started singing "you don't know what you're doing" I fear the end is nigh
Was singing that at the top of my voice today and with conviction... as it was factually nail on the head.
Apart from when we play the easier lower or midtable games, can anyone really see things turning round?
So why carry on as we are now with a manager/coach who repeats his selection/playing tactics week after week with little effect.
However,if a change is made it has to be someone who has a record of Championship promotions who can change of organize/motivate our players.
Personally, I'd offer Benitez as much as he wants to come here....
Quote from: Ordar on December 14, 2019, 08:45:15 PM
Personally, I'd offer Benitez as much as he wants to come here....
Absolute no brainier if possible. Can't see it though.
Afraid I'm with the majority. He can't see we are too exposed in midfield the way we play and as a result, the defence looks even worse. Time to change and get someone in who can get the most out of a talented squad.
Football fans are so predictable.
Quote from: Fulham1959 on December 14, 2019, 08:59:26 PM
Football fans are so predictable.
I can't stand the programme but it was on in the background. On 606 tonight they had a Leeds fan moaning about tactics and substitutions. Now if only we had some of the grit the 'Cardiff Ten' showed.
Quote from: Worcesterwhite on December 14, 2019, 05:13:51 PM
I might offend some with this post, ah give him time he's a new manager, ahh we are still in the play off places....
His tactics are useless and we are under performing, some people will argue against changing manger to someone like Chris Hughton as he might win games but not play attractive football, attractive football to me is winning football matches, end of! I would choose that any day over Parker's boring ineffective tactics!
+100 %
Quote from: joef on December 14, 2019, 09:07:40 PM
Quote from: Fulham1959 on December 14, 2019, 08:59:26 PM
Football fans are so predictable.
Much like our football
As we can all see. I don't understand the selection or the tactics
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 14, 2019, 08:46:22 PM
Quote from: Ordar on December 14, 2019, 08:45:15 PM
Personally, I'd offer Benitez as much as he wants to come here....
Absolute no brainier if possible. Can't see it though.
Think you will find his Chinese club are pricing him out of Premiership clubs. Are you offering to contribute to the compensation claim?
Quote from: deadcowboys on December 14, 2019, 10:21:06 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 14, 2019, 08:46:22 PM
Quote from: Ordar on December 14, 2019, 08:45:15 PM
Personally, I'd offer Benitez as much as he wants to come here....
Absolute no brainier if possible. Can't see it though.
Think you will find his Chinese club are pricing him out of Premiership clubs. Are you offering to contribute to the compensation claim?
Readings tough isn't it?
How many Managers have we had since Cookie? How many were any good?
I don't remember many thinking Roy would be a success and it took a while for things to turn around as it did for SJ.
We don't have a team (under any manager) that's Premiership quality or a ground for that matter.
For me he stays.
Quote from: I Ronic on December 14, 2019, 11:39:18 PM
We don't have a team (under any manager) that's Premiership quality
If we were 6th in the Premiership this post would be sensible and relevant.
But we're not.
So it's not.
Our lack of handling 50/50 balls is a real issue. Teams score simple goals against us. They start possession from long and intermediate 50/50 balls, and we are immediately on the back foot. Parker needs to change our defensive position in transition because our defensive line is too high and pressuring too high, with no real physicality. As a result, the opponent can send two runs towards the sidelines and the ball goes to the more advanced to set up the other. We've conceded about 4x when Mawson is covering for a high pressuring fullback, making him completely overcomitted to the wrong side of the pitch. That happened when we conceded, but someone really did needed to put a foot on Benrhama before that.
Our defenders always seem exposed, and thus often have the jitters, and give the ball away too easily.
Somehow, we need more organisation, with the midfield providing more protection. I remember Roy's emphasis on sound defence, based on defending from the front, with drills practised regularly in training, so that everyone knew exactly what they were doing.
As Zamora sad recently in interview - the reason why he didn't score more for Fulham, was because he had the job of being the first line of defence, and thus staying back, ready to take on one of the opposition as they broke from defence, because he was quite effective at this.
I was at Preston, down the front behind the goal, and while this doesn't give a very good overview of the game, i had a close up when Preston scored their first goal, and was amazed - it came out of nothing, with us appearing to be comfortable with men back, in possession, until one of their players nipped in and got the ball, and the next second it was in the back of our net! The game changed after that - we had seemed in control.
We let in too many soft, avoidable goals, which means confidence is lost, and we are chasing the game.
Defensive confidence seems low, as if the players are unclear as to what to do.
However, i would caution against sacking the manager. We have just had a winning run of four games under Scott, and had achieved 3rd place. He deserves more of a a chance, and sacking him could, i think, be counter productive at this time.
I appeal to fans to get behind the manager and players at this time, whatever your reservations - otherwise a downward spiral can set in.
Let's hear a big roar for the team from Fulham fans against Leeds.
Together we can do it.
COYW!!!! 049:gif
Quote from: I Ronic on December 14, 2019, 11:39:18 PM
How many Managers have we had since Cookie? How many were any good?
I don't remember many thinking Roy would be a success and it took a while for things to turn around as it did for SJ.
We don't have a team (under any manager) that's Premiership quality or a ground for that matter.
For me he stays.
tend to agree
Quote from: hovewhite on December 15, 2019, 06:52:27 AM
Quote from: I Ronic on December 14, 2019, 11:39:18 PM
How many Managers have we had since Cookie? How many were any good?
I don't remember many thinking Roy would be a success and it took a while for things to turn around as it did for SJ.
We don't have a team (under any manager) that's Premiership quality or a ground for that matter.
For me he stays.
tend to agree
hmm don't agree with that. Roy joined just before new year and masterminded the great escape by may. In contrast Parker has had over 30 games and we are getting worse.
Quote from: fulhamben on December 15, 2019, 09:14:09 AM
Quote from: hovewhite on December 15, 2019, 06:52:27 AM
Quote from: I Ronic on December 14, 2019, 11:39:18 PM
How many Managers have we had since Cookie? How many were any good?
I don't remember many thinking Roy would be a success and it took a while for things to turn around as it did for SJ.
We don't have a team (under any manager) that's Premiership quality or a ground for that matter.
For me he stays.
tend to agree
hmm don't agree with that. Roy joined just before new year and masterminded the great escape by may. In contrast Parker has had over 30 games and we are getting worse.
Bit harsh to lump the end of the Premiership fiasco on Parker and of course we are often told the friendlies are meaningless.
If Parker is honest and has a conscience then he should be saying to himself 'if I do not turn this around in the next game against Leeds then I have to quit because I am holding this team back by my coaching methods'.
Quote from: toshes mate on December 15, 2019, 10:33:23 AM
If Parker is honest and has a conscience then he should be saying to himself 'if I do not turn this around in the next game against Leeds then I have to quit because I am holding this team back by my coaching methods'.
True!
There's no reason why he can't be successful with us but he has to accept his plan ain't working and he needs to adjust his methods and change his teams approach to playing fast!
We have already missed the bus to automatic promotion and we now risk falling out of contention when top 3 should have been a given.
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 15, 2019, 10:21:23 AM
Quote from: fulhamben on December 15, 2019, 09:14:09 AM
Quote from: hovewhite on December 15, 2019, 06:52:27 AM
Quote from: I Ronic on December 14, 2019, 11:39:18 PM
How many Managers have we had since Cookie? How many were any good?
I don't remember many thinking Roy would be a success and it took a while for things to turn around as it did for SJ.
We don't have a team (under any manager) that's Premiership quality or a ground for that matter.
For me he stays.
tend to agree
hmm don't agree with that. Roy joined just before new year and masterminded the great escape by may. In contrast Parker has had over 30 games and we are getting worse.
Bit harsh to lump the end of the Premiership fiasco on Parker and of course we are often told the friendlies are meaningless.
roy arguably inherited more of a fiasco then Parker did. Parker has no pressure on him as I don't think anyone expected us to stay up by the time we took over. So he had a dozen games to see what's what, the whole summer and pre season, the summer window and 20 games and we are going backwards.
If Parker was Murphy would we allow him more time? I think the problem with parker is that this is his 1st Managerial Role he's not even been an Assistant Manager somewhere be it to U18 U23s or 1st team, we are pretty much learning on the job. Now if I thought he may show some loyalty should a bigger fish come calling I might be inclined to give him that time. But I think he's shown already he's willing to jump to the next step as soon as it comes calling, leaving us for Spurs then leaving Spurs for us if it progressing his career.
Quote from: Nero on December 15, 2019, 01:05:36 PM
If Parker was Murphy would we allow him more time? I think the problem with parker is that this is his 1st Managerial Role he's not even been an Assistant Manager somewhere be it to U18 U23s or 1st team, we are pretty much learning on the job. Now if I thought he may show some loyalty should a bigger fish come calling I might be inclined to give him that time. But I think he's shown already he's willing to jump to the next step as soon as it comes calling, leaving us for Spurs then leaving Spurs for us if it progressing his career.
no I wouldn't give Murphy extra time. It's not personal imo, he is just doing a bad job
I have backed Parker to retain his job until the end of the season simply because a) I am fearful of the Khans' inability to recruit successfully and b) he has given me the impression he is by no means a worse case proof of a). However, I am somewhat unconvinced by the mantra he offers to Jamie Reid on FFCtv, where he seems to believe blame, criticism and finger pointing go with the territory and should therefore be dismissed, as he cushions himself and his team behind 'togetherness'. Now I'd have thought that August to December (four full months) was more than enough time to engender togetherness not just in an eleven man team but in a full squad. He 'big's up' Onomah which is really on the flimsiest evidence imaginable i.e. he is getting better. He's lost himself in some imaginary world where external anger at his job performance is firmly based upon what happened with 'fickle' supporters three weeks ago as compared to now. He didn't see a bad performance at Griffin Park, he saw passion and fight from his players against a good side. No mention of the last three performances in games not being good enough, just a blip in his opinion. Knocks another ten marks of my score for him and he is now close to the line I have drawn where my doubts exceed my confidence levels. He needs to be more truthful to himself because supporters pay good money to keep him in a job. The criticisms are all valid, Mr Parker, and doubt it at your peril.
Quote from: toshes mate on December 15, 2019, 01:41:40 PM
I have backed Parker to retain his job until the end of the season simply because a) I am fearful of the Khans' inability to recruit successfully and b) he has given me the impression he is by no means a worse case proof of a). However, I am somewhat unconvinced by the mantra he offers to Jamie Reid on FFCtv, where he seems to believe blame, criticism and finger pointing go with the territory and should therefore be dismissed, as he cushions himself and his team behind 'togetherness'. Now I'd have thought that August to December (four full months) was more than enough time to engender togetherness not just in an eleven man team but in a full squad. He 'big's up' Onomah which is really on the flimsiest evidence imaginable i.e. he is getting better. He's lost himself in some imaginary world where external anger at his job performance is firmly based upon what happened with 'fickle' supporters three weeks ago as compared to now. He didn't see a bad performance at Griffin Park, he saw passion and fight from his players against a good side. No mention of the last three performances in games not being good enough, just a blip in his opinion. Knocks another ten marks of my score for him and he is now close to the line I have drawn where my doubts exceed my confidence levels. He needs to be more truthful to himself because supporters pay good money to keep him in a job. The criticisms are all valid, Mr Parker, and doubt it at your peril.
That's one point of view, and just goes to show how we interpret a message differently. I found it honest and sincere. He didn't hide behind any common sayings, he gave it how it is and spoke with passion. Noone can deny just how fickle supporters are to players and managers. Those players and managers are just temporary and the question for them is always "What have you done for me lately?". I'm glad Parker stated the obvious. He knows the environment he's in, the players know what environment they are in. It's now about what they're going to do to respond, and no amount of temporary acceptance is going to sway them. As he said, they can choose to hide and play the blame game, or they can choose to fight and show their character. For me, that works, but the question is how will he be able to get it to an actionable, matchday result. Looking forward to it as always.
I like Matt's post.
I'm sure that how a player or manager perceives how their team has played in a game is often a lot different from how fans perceive it.
Where the fans see lack f effort, and a don't care attitude when they would probably pay to wear the shirt, the player and manager probably thinks they gave it their very best shot, and are gutted by the result, but just weren't good enough, or things just didn't go their way.
One thing a player must learn early, or any athlete, is how to deal with failure - which is inevitable: you sometimes lose. However good you are, you will fail on occasion, and have to deal with it, as well as accepting the garlands and applause when you win.
I do admire Parker's honesty and passion for the game and the club, and his belief in and support of his players. I'm glad he doesn't just blame or slag off certain players for bad results and performances - not in public anyway, and find this admirable.
I respect Scott Parker as a man and a manager, who does his best for the club, and very much wants success for the club and himself, as he did as a player.
Yes, I like both Matt and Ray's responses. I liked most of SP's post-match comments and think we should stick with him. However, I do hope that he has the tactical nous to recognize this is not just a side that was a bit short of confidence and just had a bit of an off day. Yes, they need to pick themselves up and get back to more positive performances, but I sincerely hope that he finds a way to get the most out of what are talented players. Cav and Knockaert are not delivering for whatever reason. The balance, formation, structure of the team is, as everyone seems to agree, not quite there yet and he as head coach should also be aware of that. If he does, he has chosen not to mention it which is just a shade worrying. Interesting few games coming up.
Quote from: toshes mate on December 15, 2019, 01:41:40 PM
I have backed Parker to retain his job until the end of the season simply because a) I am fearful of the Khans' inability to recruit successfully and b) he has given me the impression he is by no means a worse case proof of a). However, I am somewhat unconvinced by the mantra he offers to Jamie Reid on FFCtv, where he seems to believe blame, criticism and finger pointing go with the territory and should therefore be dismissed, as he cushions himself and his team behind 'togetherness'. Now I'd have thought that August to December (four full months) was more than enough time to engender togetherness not just in an eleven man team but in a full squad. He 'big's up' Onomah which is really on the flimsiest evidence imaginable i.e. he is getting better. He's lost himself in some imaginary world where external anger at his job performance is firmly based upon what happened with 'fickle' supporters three weeks ago as compared to now. He didn't see a bad performance at Griffin Park, he saw passion and fight from his players against a good side. No mention of the last three performances in games not being good enough, just a blip in his opinion. Knocks another ten marks of my score for him and he is now close to the line I have drawn where my doubts exceed my confidence levels. He needs to be more truthful to himself because supporters pay good money to keep him in a job. The criticisms are all valid, Mr Parker, and doubt it at your peril.
Just watched the post match re4action from him you mention. very dismissive of things. hes maybe right, its just one of those things, its football, it happens. But lets not think over those 4 wins we were drolling over the football because we were not. I think we can all agree that actual; games we ahev walked away from this season thinking that was really great are limited.
As for Onomah. in teh second half when he went deeper on his own he was better, he was maybe one of the very fait bright sparks, but dont for one second tell me that showed what a good player he is, because it didnt.
Quote from: Matt10 on December 16, 2019, 04:02:48 AM
I found [the interview with Jamie Read] honest and sincere. He didn't hide behind any common sayings, he gave it how it is and spoke with passion. Noone can deny just how fickle supporters are to players and managers. Those players and managers are just temporary and the question for them is always "What have you done for me lately?". I'm glad Parker stated the obvious. He knows the environment he's in, the players know what environment they are in. It's now about what they're going to do to respond, and no amount of temporary acceptance is going to sway them. As he said, they can choose to hide and play the blame game, or they can choose to fight and show their character. For me, that works, but the question is how will he be able to get it to an actionable, matchday result. Looking forward to it as always.
What has 'knowing the environment' got to do with anything? No one coerced these people into some awful exposed position and environment - they freely chose it and get well paid by any account. Why should anyone in entertainment find fault with their paying audience since they offer a product for sale and should expect to be criticised by those who feel they have been sold short? The only team I have seen Parker field that has shown real flair as compared to anything marginally better than a fairly mediocre football standard was against Millwall. Even then I felt our opponents had opportunities to change the game and the result before our players put of a fluid and dynamic show which was probably absolutely nothing to do with Parker's training methods. I have remained patient with Parker but I do not like hearing any manager/coach/owner abusing supporters by dismissing them when the chips are down. His character, IMO, is highly suspect and I expected better. Let's just see the response against Leeds, and, in the meantime tarry with the question 'why didn't it happen against Brentford then?' a point high up on Parker's list in his pre-match hyperbole. I am angry that Parker dared to be so two faced in a shielded interview by someone who doesn't have a reputation for asking awkward questions. Parker was openly disingenuous.
The feeling is that we should waste money paying off SP.
Bring in a journeyman manager, whoever that might be.
Bring in new coaching staff.
Change the style completely which could take weeks to bed in.
Have no guarantee that we would finish in the play offs.
Have to be subjected to the manager out brigade again should we not get in the play offs.
No thanks.
If he wises up and see's a change in tactics and teamwork are needed I think he has the players to improve performances.
But that's the problem, will he continue down this blind ally or unleash the talent we have.
Better to set up the team to win high scoring games and risk dropping points than continue with this dross!
It is a change of tact that is needed and I hope Parker sorts it. I feel like s broken record on here but keep saying more tempo and try different formations. But then I am a fickle fan I guess.
This thread has, over the past eight or so posts, become the sensible thread - with good reasoned arguments. We need to sort our current form and situation out quickly, as MJG rightly points out the 4 consecutive wins were not exactly inspiring. - tactics surely need to be changed and the players need to move up to the plate . I personally believe we should give Parker more time - but only if he begins to adapt. We removed one of our best ever managers fir being too stubborn ( he had at least earned the right to have his playing style convictions ) Parker has not yet achieved that level. However , a change of manager is another huge gamble - on top of which this season - at best - will surely leave us with the lottery of the playoffs. Time to reflect and probably time to stick
Until Saturday, I thought Parker should be given a chance to build his team and pattern of play over a longer period in the hope that recent backward steps were more blips than the norm.
However, it is now clear to me that the norm is just muddling around trying to graft out a result (or not) and the blips are when teams are too frightened by our 'reputation' e.g. Millwall - which was one of the worst away performances I have ever seen in over 45 years.
My main observations would be:
1) I'm all for patient build up play, with the intention of pulling the opposition around to create openings and chances, but it is pretty clear now that our players are encouraged to keep the ball for the sake of it with no real intent.
The amount of times this season the ball has gone to & fro between Ream and Mawson, with no movement in midfield to play between the lines, and then, particularly on Saturday a few times, ending up with one of them aimlesslessly lumping it forward and losing possession anyway - what's the point?
The passing around should be happening between Cairney, Johansen and one other, with our supposedly potent forwards making intelligent movement.
2) Again, since the beginning of the season, Knockaert and Cavaleiro should be encouraged to take players on - take a chance high up the pitch and be positive.
But no, Cavaleiro in particular has been so pedestrian, and has obviously been told to check back whenever he approaches someone, rather than take them on, and Knockaert's head seems all over the place with whatever instructions he has been given.
It's a waste of tried and tested talent, and most criminally a waste of Mitrovic.
3) Parker talked of passion before the game, and bragging rights. Sorry, but that was pathetic and embarrassing on Saturday, and one team clearly wanted it more than the other.
In summary, I think I've seen enough, and even though it's probably too late to mount an automatic promotion challenge, there is still a chance to turn the play-offs into something more than the lottery we are heading towards.
Having said that, we have to find someone else before pulling the trigger, because we can't have another situation like when Symons went, and right now I don't know who - but that's what we have a director of football for, right?
Quote from: Chesh on December 16, 2019, 10:25:49 AM
Until Saturday, I thought Parker should be given a chance to build his team and pattern of play over a longer period in the hope that recent backward steps were more blips than the norm.
However, it is now clear to me that the norm is just muddling around trying to graft out a result (or not) and the blips are when teams are too frightened by our 'reputation' e.g. Millwall - which was one of the worst away performances I have ever seen in over 45 years.
My main observations would be:
1) I'm all for patient build up play, with the intention of pulling the opposition around to create openings and chances, but it is pretty clear now that our players are encouraged to keep the ball for the sake of it with no real intent.
The amount of times this season the ball has gone to & fro between Ream and Mawson, with no movement in midfield to play between the lines, and then, particularly on Saturday a few times, ending up with one of them aimlesslessly lumping it forward and losing possession anyway - what's the point?
The passing around should be happening between Cairney, Johansen and one other, with our supposedly potent forwards making intelligent movement.
2) Again, since the beginning of the season, Knockaert and Cavaleiro should be encouraged to take players on - take a chance high up the pitch and be positive.
But no, Cavaleiro in particular has been so pedestrian, and has obviously been told to check back whenever he approaches someone, rather than take them on, and Knockaert's head seems all over the place with whatever instructions he has been given.
It's a waste of tried and tested talent, and most criminally a waste of Mitrovic.
3) Parker talked of passion before the game, and bragging rights. Sorry, but that was pathetic and embarrassing on Saturday, and one team clearly wanted it more than the other.
In summary, I think I've seen enough, and even though it's probably too late to mount an automatic promotion challenge, there is still a chance to turn the play-offs into something more than the lottery we are heading towards.
Having said that, we have to find someone else before pulling the trigger, because we can't have another situation like when Symons went, and right now I don't know who - but that's what we have a director of football for, right?
Excellent summary. 100% agree.
Quote from: Chesh on December 16, 2019, 10:25:49 AM
Until Saturday, I thought Parker should be given a chance to build his team and pattern of play over a longer period in the hope that recent backward steps were more blips than the norm.
However, it is now clear to me that the norm is just muddling around trying to graft out a result (or not) and the blips are when teams are too frightened by our 'reputation' e.g. Millwall - which was one of the worst away performances I have ever seen in over 45 years.
My main observations would be:
1) I'm all for patient build up play, with the intention of pulling the opposition around to create openings and chances, but it is pretty clear now that our players are encouraged to keep the ball for the sake of it with no real intent.
The amount of times this season the ball has gone to & fro between Ream and Mawson, with no movement in midfield to play between the lines, and then, particularly on Saturday a few times, ending up with one of them aimlesslessly lumping it forward and losing possession anyway - what's the point?
The passing around should be happening between Cairney, Johansen and one other, with our supposedly potent forwards making intelligent movement.
2) Again, since the beginning of the season, Knockaert and Cavaleiro should be encouraged to take players on - take a chance high up the pitch and be positive.
But no, Cavaleiro in particular has been so pedestrian, and has obviously been told to check back whenever he approaches someone, rather than take them on, and Knockaert's head seems all over the place with whatever instructions he has been given.
It's a waste of tried and tested talent, and most criminally a waste of Mitrovic.
3) Parker talked of passion before the game, and bragging rights. Sorry, but that was pathetic and embarrassing on Saturday, and one team clearly wanted it more than the other.
In summary, I think I've seen enough, and even though it's probably too late to mount an automatic promotion challenge, there is still a chance to turn the play-offs into something more than the lottery we are heading towards.
Having said that, we have to find someone else before pulling the trigger, because we can't have another situation like when Symons went, and right now I don't know who - but that's what we have a director of football for, right?
.
Cant argue with much of that Chesh.Refreshing to find someone being constructive in this situation and not just bleating "parker out" as the solution to all our problems. If we do change manager we cant do a Jocanovic to Ranieri type of change ,as the latter was always doomed to failure with his footballing philosophy and the group of players that he inherited which were diametrically unsuited to his tactics and approach.
My comment on your post should have read: "cant argue with nuch of that Chesh .refreshing to find someone being constructive in this situation and not just bleating "Parker out " as the solution to all our problems. If we do change manager we cant do a Jocanovic to Ranieri type of change,as the latter was always doomed to failure with his footballing philosophy and the group of players which he inherited diametrically unsuited to his tactics and approach.
Couldnt seem to change the text and the repetitive reply bit kept coming in from nowhere.
My real Problem with Parker is, our system reflects the pace and passing of Parker in his last couple of years as a player. Can people not remember him making pass after pass and the ball not really moving anywhere, his stats were amazing but what did we get as an end product, Very similar football to what we have this season. That is my personal opinion, I have no dislike of Parker or any of our players but find generally our system and players very weak if they are pressed by the opposition, Maybe that is why he persists with Onomah, he is a big unit. With the exception of Onomah he appears to be going for the safety option through experience when picking the team.
I have no doubt things will change sooner rather than later, in fact I am pretty sure options are being discussed right now in anticipation of more bad results before the Transfer window opens in a few weeks time, of course i'm not talking about new players before the transfer window opens, just the management team.
Quote from: colinwhite on December 16, 2019, 11:06:26 AM
My comment on your post should have read: "cant argue with nuch of that Chesh .refreshing to find someone being constructive in this situation and not just bleating "Parker out " as the solution to all our problems. If we do change manager we cant do a Jocanovic to Ranieri type of change,as the latter was always making repetitive replies that aren't funny! to failure with his footballing philosophy and the group of players which he inherited diametrically unsuited to his tactics and approach.
Couldnt seem to change the text and the repetitive reply bit kept coming in from nowhere.
It has happened to me too. It seems CR must be an avid reader of this forum ...
think what Scott needs to remember is "Its not about the long ball or the short ball, its about the right ball."
My two-pennorth. Never liked Parker. As a coach, as a player; as a person he is monotone and lacks any charisma.
His starting 11 is often hard to fathom, tactically naive, questionable formations, poor substitutions, no fire or passion. He stands there with his hands in his pocket hoping...
He has hawked himself around nearly every London club as a player; Charlton, Chelsea, West Ham, Spurs and finally, us. Like a farewell tour, we were silly enough to get him at the end of his career, and then, get him back at the start of his managerial one.
He did his primary coaching at Spurs, is that not a big enough hint? The only reason he is with us as Manager (or Head Coach if you like) is because Spurs and none of the other London clubs he has been with offered him the top job!! We did.
He is not a long loyal servant of Fulham. He took his pension with us and then got an apprentiship here too! Double whammy.
He needs to go - ASAP - or I will re-post this in 8 weeks time with my head in my hands. Just to say, these people are available; all of whom would be better. (realistic targets)
Sam Allardyce
Javi Gracia / Quique Sanches Flores (these might be the same person!)
David Moyes
Chris Hughton
Alan Pardew
Alex McLeish
Martin O'Neill
Tony Pulis
Ideally we need an experienced Manager - defence first - then build and attack. Team spirit - fight with every fibre, every week. Someone to fire the troops - scare the hell out of them - but get them organised and bring back some pride playing for the shirt.
Anyway, i'll end with a final thought - of course I'd rather the team was winning - with Parker - I hate change, but I can't see this panning out well. For me its Big Sam or David Moyes. EXPERIENCE ! As ever, if you don't agree with me, keep it polite, we are all fans and even if we disagree, we need to keep it polite. COYW ! (and yes, been a fan a long time, STH, etc!)
Quote from: sumofallparts on December 16, 2019, 02:27:57 PM
My two-pennorth. Never liked Parker. As a coach, as a player; as a person he is monotone and lacks any charisma.
His starting 11 is often hard to fathom, tactically naive, questionable formations, poor substitutions, no fire or passion. He stands there with his hands in his pocket hoping...
He has hawked himself around nearly every London club as a player; Charlton, Chelsea, West Ham, Spurs and finally, us. Like a farewell tour, we were silly enough to get him at the end of his career, and then, get him back at the start of his managerial one.
He did his primary coaching at Spurs, is that not a big enough hint? The only reason he is with us as Manager (or Head Coach if you like) is because Spurs and none of the other London clubs he has been with offered him the top job!! We did.
He is not a long loyal servant of Fulham. He took his pension with us and then got an apprentiship here too! Double whammy.
He needs to go - ASAP - or I will re-post this in 8 weeks time with my head in my hands. Just to say, these people are available; all of whom would be better. (realistic targets)
Sam Allardyce
Javi Gracia / Quique Sanches Flores (these might be the same person!)
David Moyes
Chris Hughton
Alan Pardew
Alex McLeish
Martin O'Neill
Tony Pulis
Ideally we need an experienced Manager - defence first - then build and attack. Team spirit - fight with every fibre, every week. Someone to fire the troops - scare the hell out of them - but get them organised and bring back some pride playing for the shirt.
Anyway, i'll end with a final thought - of course I'd rather the team was winning - with Parker - I hate change, but I can't see this panning out well. For me its Big Sam or David Moyes. EXPERIENCE ! As ever, if you don't agree with me, keep it polite, we are all fans and even if we disagree, we need to keep it polite. COYW ! (and yes, been a fan a long time, STH, etc!)
Pardew for me for if we couldn't get Lee Johnson
Quote from: hovewhite on December 16, 2019, 03:02:02 PM
Quote from: sumofallparts on December 16, 2019, 02:27:57 PM
My two-pennorth. Never liked Parker. As a coach, as a player; as a person he is monotone and lacks any charisma.
His starting 11 is often hard to fathom, tactically naive, questionable formations, poor substitutions, no fire or passion. He stands there with his hands in his pocket hoping...
He has hawked himself around nearly every London club as a player; Charlton, Chelsea, West Ham, Spurs and finally, us. Like a farewell tour, we were silly enough to get him at the end of his career, and then, get him back at the start of his managerial one.
He did his primary coaching at Spurs, is that not a big enough hint? The only reason he is with us as Manager (or Head Coach if you like) is because Spurs and none of the other London clubs he has been with offered him the top job!! We did.
He is not a long loyal servant of Fulham. He took his pension with us and then got an apprentiship here too! Double whammy.
He needs to go - ASAP - or I will re-post this in 8 weeks time with my head in my hands. Just to say, these people are available; all of whom would be better. (realistic targets)
Sam Allardyce
Javi Gracia / Quique Sanches Flores (these might be the same person!)
David Moyes
Chris Hughton
Alan Pardew
Alex McLeish
Martin O'Neill
Tony Pulis
Ideally we need an experienced Manager - defence first - then build and attack. Team spirit - fight with every fibre, every week. Someone to fire the troops - scare the hell out of them - but get them organised and bring back some pride playing for the shirt.
Anyway, i'll end with a final thought - of course I'd rather the team was winning - with Parker - I hate change, but I can't see this panning out well. For me its Big Sam or David Moyes. EXPERIENCE ! As ever, if you don't agree with me, keep it polite, we are all fans and even if we disagree, we need to keep it polite. COYW ! (and yes, been a fan a long time, STH, etc!)
Pardew for me for if we couldn't get Lee Johnson
Let's get Ray Llewingron back
Quote from: sumofallparts on December 16, 2019, 02:27:57 PM
My two-pennorth. Never liked Parker. As a coach, as a player; as a person he is monotone and lacks any charisma.
His starting 11 is often hard to fathom, tactically naive, questionable formations, poor substitutions, no fire or passion. He stands there with his hands in his pocket hoping...
He has hawked himself around nearly every London club as a player; Charlton, Chelsea, West Ham, Spurs and finally, us. Like a farewell tour, we were silly enough to get him at the end of his career, and then, get him back at the start of his managerial one.
He did his primary coaching at Spurs, is that not a big enough hint? The only reason he is with us as Manager (or Head Coach if you like) is because Spurs and none of the other London clubs he has been with offered him the top job!! We did.
He is not a long loyal servant of Fulham. He took his pension with us and then got an apprentiship here too! Double whammy.
He needs to go - ASAP - or I will re-post this in 8 weeks time with my head in my hands. Just to say, these people are available; all of whom would be better. (realistic targets)
Sam Allardyce
Javi Gracia / Quique Sanches Flores (these might be the same person!)
David Moyes
Chris Hughton
Alan Pardew
Alex McLeish
Martin O'Neill
Tony Pulis
Ideally we need an experienced Manager - defence first - then build and attack. Team spirit - fight with every fibre, every week. Someone to fire the troops - scare the hell out of them - but get them organised and bring back some pride playing for the shirt.
Anyway, i'll end with a final thought - of course I'd rather the team was winning - with Parker - I hate change, but I can't see this panning out well. For me its Big Sam or David Moyes. EXPERIENCE ! As ever, if you don't agree with me, keep it polite, we are all fans and even if we disagree, we need to keep it polite. COYW ! (and yes, been a fan a long time, STH, etc!)
You say keep it polite, but your post is full of personal abuse of a Fulham ex-player now manager, that goes beyond discussion of whatever professional failings Parker might have.
This toxic, hysterical atmosphere, and obsession with success, with no room for any kind of failure, that has infected football, will drive away decent fans.
Since I've been supporting Fulham, since the early 60s, we haven't actually had that much success, and i suppose that if that is what i craved, i would have gone and watched another London tam.
Though, before anyone jumps down my throat, i do want Fulham to do well, always want to see them win, but they are my team and i support them and through thick and thin.
Yes, criticise players and manager, of course, we all do that, but thee days it's well over the top, as if nothing and noone is ever good enough.
Quote from: toshes mate on December 16, 2019, 08:51:15 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on December 16, 2019, 04:02:48 AM
I found [the interview with Jamie Read] honest and sincere. He didn't hide behind any common sayings, he gave it how it is and spoke with passion. Noone can deny just how fickle supporters are to players and managers. Those players and managers are just temporary and the question for them is always "What have you done for me lately?". I'm glad Parker stated the obvious. He knows the environment he's in, the players know what environment they are in. It's now about what they're going to do to respond, and no amount of temporary acceptance is going to sway them. As he said, they can choose to hide and play the blame game, or they can choose to fight and show their character. For me, that works, but the question is how will he be able to get it to an actionable, matchday result. Looking forward to it as always.
What has 'knowing the environment' got to do with anything? No one coerced these people into some awful exposed position and environment - they freely chose it and get well paid by any account. Why should anyone in entertainment find fault with their paying audience since they offer a product for sale and should expect to be criticised by those who feel they have been sold short? The only team I have seen Parker field that has shown real flair as compared to anything marginally better than a fairly mediocre football standard was against Millwall. Even then I felt our opponents had opportunities to change the game and the result before our players put of a fluid and dynamic show which was probably absolutely nothing to do with Parker's training methods. I have remained patient with Parker but I do not like hearing any manager/coach/owner abusing supporters by dismissing them when the chips are down. His character, IMO, is highly suspect and I expected better. Let's just see the response against Leeds, and, in the meantime tarry with the question 'why didn't it happen against Brentford then?' a point high up on Parker's list in his pre-match hyperbole. I am angry that Parker dared to be so two faced in a shielded interview by someone who doesn't have a reputation for asking awkward questions. Parker was openly disingenuous.
Knowing the environment has everything to do with it. It's basically saying what doesn't really need to be said.
Booing Parker and the players? Great, no surprise there > Environment.
Saying Parker Out? Imagine that, couldn't have thought of anything else to wipe away all our problems > Environment.
Having to deal with failure and adversity > Environment.
The environment he's addressing isn't for us as the fans. It's about the players. Sorry to say, but fans are not a priority when it comes to figuring out these issues. His comments were very much in-line with prioritizing his players, and not just trying to make the fans happy. Ever work in customer service? The customer is always right, and in this environment it's not different, the customer (the fans) are always right in their own way, and there is no need for Parker, or the players, to provide answers that we already don't want to hear in the first place. What's the point?
His comments were direct, passionate and logical. If you've seen his previous interviews, this one was far from that level of calmness and matter-of-fact approach. I appreciated it, and I'm sure his players did too. At the end of the day, his players are all that matters - and our satisfaction to how he handles himself in interviews has little impact to how they are going to perform the rest of the season.
Quote from: sumofallparts on December 16, 2019, 02:27:57 PM
My two-pennorth. Never liked Parker. As a coach, as a player; as a person he is monotone and lacks any charisma.
His starting 11 is often hard to fathom, tactically naive, questionable formations, poor substitutions, no fire or passion. He stands there with his hands in his pocket hoping...
He has hawked himself around nearly every London club as a player; Charlton, Chelsea, West Ham, Spurs and finally, us. Like a farewell tour, we were silly enough to get him at the end of his career, and then, get him back at the start of his managerial one.
He did his primary coaching at Spurs, is that not a big enough hint? The only reason he is with us as Manager (or Head Coach if you like) is because Spurs and none of the other London clubs he has been with offered him the top job!! We did.
He is not a long loyal servant of Fulham. He took his pension with us and then got an apprentiship here too! Double whammy.
He needs to go - ASAP - or I will re-post this in 8 weeks time with my head in my hands. Just to say, these people are available; all of whom would be better. (realistic targets)
Sam Allardyce
Javi Gracia / Quique Sanches Flores (these might be the same person!)
David Moyes
Chris Hughton
Alan Pardew
Alex McLeish
Martin O'Neill
Tony Pulis
Ideally we need an experienced Manager - defence first - then build and attack. Team spirit - fight with every fibre, every week. Someone to fire the troops - scare the hell out of them - but get them organised and bring back some pride playing for the shirt.
Anyway, i'll end with a final thought - of course I'd rather the team was winning - with Parker - I hate change, but I can't see this panning out well. For me its Big Sam or David Moyes. EXPERIENCE ! As ever, if you don't agree with me, keep it polite, we are all fans and even if we disagree, we need to keep it polite. COYW ! (and yes, been a fan a long time, STH, etc!)
Not many on that list I would be interested in. And some I would absolutely hate, Pulis and his dinosaur football especially. Pardew? nice guy but like many of the others, past his sell-by date.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion about the suitability of; our Manager, each player, our DoF, CEO and everyone else involved in the club. We are supporters and are bound to have views, often passionately held. That's fine.
However, in my opinion, it's definitely not fine to personalise things and be critical, disparaging, rude and even abusive about the person as an individual. We don't know them and are not in a position to leap to judgement about their character, motives, values etc. We should keep it objective, anything else is cheap.
Quote from: sumofallparts on December 16, 2019, 02:27:57 PM
My two-pennorth. Never liked Parker. As a coach, as a player; as a person he is monotone and lacks any charisma.
His starting 11 is often hard to fathom, tactically naive, questionable formations, poor substitutions, no fire or passion. He stands there with his hands in his pocket hoping...
He has hawked himself around nearly every London club as a player; Charlton, Chelsea, West Ham, Spurs and finally, us. Like a farewell tour, we were silly enough to get him at the end of his career, and then, get him back at the start of his managerial one.
He did his primary coaching at Spurs, is that not a big enough hint? The only reason he is with us as Manager (or Head Coach if you like) is because Spurs and none of the other London clubs he has been with offered him the top job!! We did.
He is not a long loyal servant of Fulham. He took his pension with us and then got an apprentiship here too! Double whammy.
He needs to go - ASAP - or I will re-post this in 8 weeks time with my head in my hands. Just to say, these people are available; all of whom would be better. (realistic targets)
Sam Allardyce
Javi Gracia / Quique Sanches Flores (these might be the same person!)
David Moyes
Chris Hughton
Alan Pardew
Alex McLeish
Martin O'Neill
Tony Pulis
Ideally we need an experienced Manager - defence first - then build and attack. Team spirit - fight with every fibre, every week. Someone to fire the troops - scare the hell out of them - but get them organised and bring back some pride playing for the shirt.
Anyway, i'll end with a final thought - of course I'd rather the team was winning - with Parker - I hate change, but I can't see this panning out well. For me its Big Sam or David Moyes. EXPERIENCE ! As ever, if you don't agree with me, keep it polite, we are all fans and even if we disagree, we need to keep it polite. COYW ! (and yes, been a fan a long time, STH, etc!)
Frankly when I saw your list you lost me. Sorry but I just couldn't ascribe any credibility to a list that had no consistency (of style or philosophy), included dinosaurs and failed to look beyond the hackneyed obvious. I sound harsh and don't mean to be but I would very sincerely hope that if, and it's a big if, the Board are looking to replace Parker, then they would be looking more creatively casting their net a bit wider.
Quote from: Matt10 on December 16, 2019, 04:10:27 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on December 16, 2019, 08:51:15 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on December 16, 2019, 04:02:48 AM
I found [the interview with Jamie Read] honest and sincere. He didn't hide behind any common sayings, he gave it how it is and spoke with passion. Noone can deny just how fickle supporters are to players and managers. Those players and managers are just temporary and the question for them is always "What have you done for me lately?". I'm glad Parker stated the obvious. He knows the environment he's in, the players know what environment they are in. It's now about what they're going to do to respond, and no amount of temporary acceptance is going to sway them. As he said, they can choose to hide and play the blame game, or they can choose to fight and show their character. For me, that works, but the question is how will he be able to get it to an actionable, matchday result. Looking forward to it as always.
What has 'knowing the environment' got to do with anything? No one coerced these people into some awful exposed position and environment - they freely chose it and get well paid by any account. Why should anyone in entertainment find fault with their paying audience since they offer a product for sale and should expect to be criticised by those who feel they have been sold short? The only team I have seen Parker field that has shown real flair as compared to anything marginally better than a fairly mediocre football standard was against Millwall. Even then I felt our opponents had opportunities to change the game and the result before our players put of a fluid and dynamic show which was probably absolutely nothing to do with Parker's training methods. I have remained patient with Parker but I do not like hearing any manager/coach/owner abusing supporters by dismissing them when the chips are down. His character, IMO, is highly suspect and I expected better. Let's just see the response against Leeds, and, in the meantime tarry with the question 'why didn't it happen against Brentford then?' a point high up on Parker's list in his pre-match hyperbole. I am angry that Parker dared to be so two faced in a shielded interview by someone who doesn't have a reputation for asking awkward questions. Parker was openly disingenuous.
Knowing the environment has everything to do with it. It's basically saying what doesn't really need to be said.
Booing Parker and the players? Great, no surprise there > Environment.
Saying Parker Out? Imagine that, couldn't have thought of anything else to wipe away all our problems > Environment.
Having to deal with failure and adversity > Environment.
The environment he's addressing isn't for us as the fans. It's about the players. Sorry to say, but fans are not a priority when it comes to figuring out these issues. His comments were very much in-line with prioritizing his players, and not just trying to make the fans happy. Ever work in customer service? The customer is always right, and in this environment it's not different, the customer (the fans) are always right in their own way, and there is no need for Parker, or the players, to provide answers that we already don't want to hear in the first place. What's the point?
His comments were direct, passionate and logical. If you've seen his previous interviews, this one was far from that level of calmness and matter-of-fact approach. I appreciated it, and I'm sure his players did too. At the end of the day, his players are all that matters - and our satisfaction to how he handles himself in interviews has little impact to how they are going to perform the rest of the season.
He's recording an interview for FFCtv, FFS, not an inquisition, and FFCtv is fan based is it not? He doesn't have to do the interview but he has chosen to because it is a chance to 'bluff' his way out of a precarious situation via a friendly face with no chance of comeback. He may fool you, Matt10, but he doesn't fool me.
Quote from: sumofallparts on December 16, 2019, 02:27:57 PM
My two-pennorth. Never liked Parker. As a coach, as a player; as a person he is monotone and lacks any charisma.
His starting 11 is often hard to fathom, tactically naive, questionable formations, poor substitutions, no fire or passion. He stands there with his hands in his pocket hoping...
He has hawked himself around nearly every London club as a player; Charlton, Chelsea, West Ham, Spurs and finally, us. Like a farewell tour, we were silly enough to get him at the end of his career, and then, get him back at the start of his managerial one.
He did his primary coaching at Spurs, is that not a big enough hint? The only reason he is with us as Manager (or Head Coach if you like) is because Spurs and none of the other London clubs he has been with offered him the top job!! We did.
He is not a long loyal servant of Fulham. He took his pension with us and then got an apprentiship here too! Double whammy.
He needs to go - ASAP - or I will re-post this in 8 weeks time with my head in my hands. Just to say, these people are available; all of whom would be better. (realistic targets)
Sam Allardyce
Javi Gracia / Quique Sanches Flores (these might be the same person!)
David Moyes
Chris Hughton
Alan Pardew
Alex McLeish
Martin O'Neill
Tony Pulis
Ideally we need an experienced Manager - defence first - then build and attack. Team spirit - fight with every fibre, every week. Someone to fire the troops - scare the hell out of them - but get them organised and bring back some pride playing for the shirt.
Anyway, i'll end with a final thought - of course I'd rather the team was winning - with Parker - I hate change, but I can't see this panning out well. For me its Big Sam or David Moyes. EXPERIENCE ! As ever, if you don't agree with me, keep it polite, we are all fans and even if we disagree, we need to keep it polite. COYW ! (and yes, been a fan a long time, STH, etc!)
Is "long loyal servant of Fulham" important in this list? If so, you've missed Cookie. Who is without a job.
Just saying, since we're judging Parker as a player, a supporter and a manager...
Wouldn´t touch a single one on this list. It has to be a wind up. Hilda would come before any of these.
Agree with Twig - once I saw he list - the post lost any of its credibility. The list scared me - the only missing nightmare was Colin.
Quote from: sumofallparts on December 16, 2019, 02:27:57 PM
Never liked Parker. As a coach, as a player; as a person he is monotone and lacks any charisma.
His starting 11 is often hard to fathom, tactically naive, questionable formations, poor substitutions, no fire or passion. He stands there with his hands in his pocket hoping...
He has hawked himself around nearly every London club as a player; Charlton, Chelsea, West Ham, Spurs and finally, us. Like a farewell tour, we were silly enough to get him at the end of his career, and then, get him back at the start of his managerial one.
He did his primary coaching at Spurs, is that not a big enough hint? The only reason he is with us as Manager (or Head Coach if you like) is because Spurs and none of the other London clubs he has been with offered him the top job!! We did.
He is not a long loyal servant of Fulham. He took his pension with us and then got an apprentiship here too! Double whammy.
He needs to go - ASAP - or I will re-post this in 8 weeks time with my head in my hands.
A number of people have criticised this part of your post but I don't think anyone can reasonably disagree with any of it
Quote from: Statto on December 16, 2019, 08:12:28 PM
Quote from: sumofallparts on December 16, 2019, 02:27:57 PM
Never liked Parker. As a coach, as a player; as a person he is monotone and lacks any charisma.
His starting 11 is often hard to fathom, tactically naive, questionable formations, poor substitutions, no fire or passion. He stands there with his hands in his pocket hoping...
He has hawked himself around nearly every London club as a player; Charlton, Chelsea, West Ham, Spurs and finally, us. Like a farewell tour, we were silly enough to get him at the end of his career, and then, get him back at the start of his managerial one.
He did his primary coaching at Spurs, is that not a big enough hint? The only reason he is with us as Manager (or Head Coach if you like) is because Spurs and none of the other London clubs he has been with offered him the top job!! We did.
He is not a long loyal servant of Fulham. He took his pension with us and then got an apprentiship here too! Double whammy.
He needs to go - ASAP - or I will re-post this in 8 weeks time with my head in my hands.
A number of people have criticised this part of your post but I don't think anyone can reasonably disagree with any of it
It's the truth. I hate that some people think that Scott Parker is Mr Fulham. He epitomised the awful mercenaries that took us down and started the decline from which we are a long way from recovering. If I never saw him associated with Fulham again it would be too soon.
I did not rate Parker when he took temporary charge last season in the Premier League.
Despite our recent four wins in a row these last three defeats proves that Parker has not got the knowhow to change systems when things go wrong.
Quote from: sumofallparts on December 16, 2019, 02:27:57 PM
My two-pennorth. Never liked Parker. As a coach, as a player; as a person he is monotone and lacks any charisma.
His starting 11 is often hard to fathom, tactically naive, questionable formations, poor substitutions, no fire or passion. He stands there with his hands in his pocket hoping...
He has hawked himself around nearly every London club as a player; Charlton, Chelsea, West Ham, Spurs and finally, us. Like a farewell tour, we were silly enough to get him at the end of his career, and then, get him back at the start of his managerial one.
He did his primary coaching at Spurs, is that not a big enough hint? The only reason he is with us as Manager (or Head Coach if you like) is because Spurs and none of the other London clubs he has been with offered him the top job!! We did.
It might be quicker and possibly more accurate if you just said you didn't like Parker. Yes he did finish off his 'badges', with many plaudits, at Spurs but we offered him a job with us as a number two, ( let us wait a whole minute for the obvious comparison), which was quite sensible given the mess the back room was in at the time. Throughout the end of the Slav era and the disaster that was the Ranieri era he was the constant link with the players. We then get ourselves into as big a mess as when Kit Symons was appointed and The Club was once again broken. Khan Snr wanted stability and went for Parker stating, and I can't quote it directly, the Club felt better for the appointment. At that time and during his time at Spurs there were no jobs going at Chelski, Charlton or West Ham so its a daft argument. He was promoted from within which is what many Clubs aspire to. The list of available options is shocking and another overhaul is not going to fix things. Unless they have changed their minds didn't Cairney and Mitro support his appointment. Whats to say a new man coming in will only galvanise their respective agents throughout January. There is more wrong with this squad than just Parker as some open and frank hostilities at Brentford showed.
He is not a long loyal servant of Fulham. He took his pension with us and then got an apprentiship here too! Double whammy.
He needs to go - ASAP - or I will re-post this in 8 weeks time with my head in my hands. Just to say, these people are available; all of whom would be better. (realistic targets)
Sam Allardyce
Javi Gracia / Quique Sanches Flores (these might be the same person!)
David Moyes
Chris Hughton
Alan Pardew
Alex McLeish
Martin O'Neill
Tony Pulis
Ideally we need an experienced Manager - defence first - then build and attack. Team spirit - fight with every fibre, every week. Someone to fire the troops - scare the hell out of them - but get them organised and bring back some pride playing for the shirt.
Anyway, i'll end with a final thought - of course I'd rather the team was winning - with Parker - I hate change, but I can't see this panning out well. For me its Big Sam or David Moyes. EXPERIENCE ! As ever, if you don't agree with me, keep it polite, we are all fans and even if we disagree, we need to keep it polite. COYW ! (and yes, been a fan a long time, STH, etc!)
Quote from: Statto on December 16, 2019, 08:12:28 PM
Quote from: sumofallparts on December 16, 2019, 02:27:57 PM
Never liked Parker. As a coach, as a player; as a person he is monotone and lacks any charisma.
His starting 11 is often hard to fathom, tactically naive, questionable formations, poor substitutions, no fire or passion. He stands there with his hands in his pocket hoping...
He has hawked himself around nearly every London club as a player; Charlton, Chelsea, West Ham, Spurs and finally, us. Like a farewell tour, we were silly enough to get him at the end of his career, and then, get him back at the start of his managerial one.
He did his primary coaching at Spurs, is that not a big enough hint? The only reason he is with us as Manager (or Head Coach if you like) is because Spurs and none of the other London clubs he has been with offered him the top job!! We did.
He is not a long loyal servant of Fulham. He took his pension with us and then got an apprentiship here too! Double whammy.
He needs to go - ASAP - or I will re-post this in 8 weeks time with my head in my hands.
A number of people have criticised this part of your post but I don't think anyone can reasonably disagree with any of it
0001.jpeg :plus one:
Not a Fulham legend by a country mile. Although this isnt a pre-requisite to be a decent manager, he isnt that either, stubborn, dull football, tactically poor, questionable selections. The sooner we see the back of him, the better and I for one wont miss him one Iota. Parker out!
Now of course I could be wrong because I was not in the room but didn't Parker come here as a number two leaving his cushy number at Spurs, didn't he hold the respect of the changing room through all the carnage, effectively got promoted from within,(something many Clubs aspire to), with the significant support of Khan Snr and key players and during this period am I right in thinking there were no top jobs going at Chelsea, West Ham, the big gig at Wembley or Charlton. Other than that you might be onto something but the list of potential managers is shocking.
As an aside yes Parker did finish off his 'badges' at Spurs and within The FA Coaches Association he was highly regarded when he was doing them. Something must be going wrong though if we are only top six almost halfway through the season and halfway into a new project. Again I was'nt in the room but did'nt Bristol, Forest and QPR lose to so called lesser or comparable teams this saturday.
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 16, 2019, 09:03:27 PM
Something must be going wrong though if we are only top six almost halfway through the season and halfway into a new project. Again I was'nt in the room but did'nt Bristol, Forest and QPR lose to so called lesser or comparable teams this saturday.
With all due respect, how much did those teams spend on their squad? What are the expectations of those teams? Are their performances way below what the individual players are capable of?
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on December 16, 2019, 09:10:50 PM
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 16, 2019, 09:03:27 PM
Something must be going wrong though if we are only top six almost halfway through the season and halfway into a new project. Again I was'nt in the room but did'nt Bristol, Forest and QPR lose to so called lesser or comparable teams this saturday.
With all due respect, how much did those teams spend on their squad? What are the expectations of those teams? Are their performances way below what the individual players are capable of?
Did we do the money spent topic a while ago? Cav and Knockaert might well be on big money but their impact has been inconsistent. Mawson was a hefty fee but again he has not really proved that value, with the caveat of the injuries of course.
Expectations? Well we just had the second major screw up in five years so top six would have been a fair target with building blocks put in along the way. Imho charging full tilt for an instant return to the Prem with journeyman, an ageing squad in key areas and the debacle of the on and off pitch fiasco of last season still ringing loud was/is folly. With this team we would be slaughtered most weeks which be improved if we turn our track record with key purchases right around. Sheffield United fans must be loving it. No superstars, no baggage but plenty of grit and a style of play founded on building blocks.
Performances dropping. Yes but some have been given a false starting point. Knockaert may well have been class under Hughton in the Championship a couple of seasons ago but that was a couple of seasons ago and his personal issues aside he has'nt really fired on all four since. Ream was our Player of the Year with 60% of the vote barely two years ago but he might lose out to Hector in January. Time is harsh. Cav, Mawson, Reid, Reed, Knockaert and even Onamah at full tilt would be fantastic but perhaps it's just not the right mix. Certainly the current back line is left really exposed when the big money does'nt track back.
Cav - 26
Mawson - 25
Reid - 26
Knockaert - 28
Cairney - 28
Mitro - 25
I hope you're not referring to the age of our players, most of whom should be in their prime. Any manager worth their salt could at least run top 2 close with this team, though the talent there should be winning the league. Any other team would lick their lips at one of those players let alone a team of them. Club turmoil or not it should be men against boys. Newcastle were in turmoil when they bought the league, the difference was that they had a competent manager. It's the managers job to get the best out of the players and make sure they are performing and tracking back. Hughton was able to do this with Knockaert, as you mentioned, so why not Mr Inspirational Scott Parker?
Players dont just become crap. To me it's as clear as day that they either dont know what they are meant to be doing, or more likely dont believe in it.
I agree we would get slaughtered in the Premier League, but we would get another go at the summer transfer market, and I would hope that the Khans had learnt their lesson.
Oh great. Now a game of top trumps.
Odoi, Ream, Kmac ........ "Key areas"
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 16, 2019, 10:42:39 PM
Oh great. Now a game of top trumps.
Odoi, Ream, Kmac ........ "Key areas"
Nice post. Might want to include some actual content next time.
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on December 16, 2019, 10:26:40 PM
Cav - 26
Mawson - 25
Reid - 26
Knockaert - 28
Cairney - 28
Mitro - 25
I hope you're not referring to the age of our players, most of whom should be in their prime. Any manager worth their salt could at least run top 2 close with this team, though the talent there should be winning the league. Any other team would lick their lips at one of those players let alone a team of them. Club turmoil or not it should be men against boys. Newcastle were in turmoil when they bought the league, the difference was that they had a competent manager. It's the managers job to get the best out of the players and make sure they are performing and tracking back. Hughton was able to do this with Knockaert, as you mentioned, so why not Mr Inspirational Scott Parker?
Players dont just become crap. To me it's as clear as day that they either dont know what they are meant to be doing, or more likely dont believe in it.
I agree we would get slaughtered in the Premier League, but we would get another go at the summer transfer market, and I would hope that the Khans had learnt their lesson.
There is no plan B - plan A isn't working, there is no direction, little drive shown maybe due to the listless style of play, selection is questionable, tactically Parker is out done most weeks these days - this squad should be top 3 this division, agree though that we would be destroyed in the premier, but again agree that gives us another chance to sort things in the summer - starting with defensive stability. Without Mitrovic we would be lower half - sorry I see nobody else to take the blame for all the above than Parker. Lose to Leeds and he must be gone. Those 4 games we won were scrappy & a long way from convincing and papered over cracks.
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on December 16, 2019, 10:43:50 PM
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 16, 2019, 10:42:39 PM
Oh great. Now a game of top trumps.
Odoi, Ream, Kmac ........ "Key areas"
Nice post. Might want to include some actual content next time.
Blimey. It's a real bugger life gets in the way. Let's see. For a start I did not refer to any of the players as being crap or becoming crap. So. Kmac and Ream must be 32 going on 33, the former seen to be slowing up already, and Odoi hit thirty last year so with my maths he is going to be 31 maybe closing in on 32. Go forward a year and the rigours of Championship football let alone the Premiership will tell and these "Key areas" will be exposed time and time again. As I said time is harsh.
We've had too many managers given too little time. If you keep on chopping and changing no-one ever feels able to do the job properly or feels secure. If results don't improve then there will have to come a time when the board acts but, for me, the time hasn't yet approached.
My main gripe with this current team is that they are so dull. There's nothing to get excited about and no one player who you feel worth traveling to watch. A few years ago there were Dempsey, Duff, Murphy - one can go on. Before that Hayles, Saha and Boa. Now we have to watch a team including Onomah and Kamara, neither of whom are remotely good enough to be seen in an FFC shirt.
The only possible exception I would make is for Kebano who has waited patiently for his chance, and waited far too long, but who looks up for it, goes forward at pace and attacks his full back.
Parker needs to get the supporters back onside and quickly. Otherwise even people like myself who want some continuity will be calling for change.
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 17, 2019, 10:48:15 AM
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on December 16, 2019, 10:43:50 PM
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 16, 2019, 10:42:39 PM
Oh great. Now a game of top trumps.
Odoi, Ream, Kmac ........ "Key areas"
Nice post. Might want to include some actual content next time.
Blimey. It's a real bugger life gets in the way. Let's see. For a start I did not refer to any of the players as being crap or becoming crap. So. Kmac and Ream must be 32 going on 33, the former seen to be slowing up already, and Odoi hit thirty last year so with my maths he is going to be 31 maybe closing in on 32. Go forward a year and the rigours of Championship football let alone the Premiership will tell and these "Key areas" will be exposed time and time again. As I said time is harsh.
My point was to keep it respectful. If you dont have time to address my points then post when you can, I'm not sat here with a timer.
Now to your post. I am not denying that we have some older players like Kmac, Ream, and Odoi. However, with the exception of Ream these are not key players. Kmac was, and we miss his leadership but he is no longer first choice. Christie can cover Odoi and is more than capable in the Championship. Team's weaknesses are not caused by age. We have weaknesses in key areas, but our version of a weakness would be acceptable by the standards of almost every team in this league. The whole team (perhaps bar Mitro and Rodak) is underperforming and that is a sign of poor management.
Age this season
Ream 31-32
Odoi 31
McDonald 30-31
MLM 29-30
Arter 29-30
Not a single one of them is "past it" for the position they play and at most two, but arguably none (when Hector arrives) of them are in our best XI.
All of them are at least a year younger than Ronaldo was when Juventus paid £100m for him.
I cannot be bothered to work out the average age of our team but I'd be astounded if it's above average.
I'd also love to compare it to the Europe league squad which was almost entirely that age or older.
We simply do not, by any stretch of the imagination, have "an ageing squad"
It's frankly laughable how much some people will try to warp the truth to fudge together something that resembles an excuse for how crap Parker is doing
"An ageing squad in key areas" is not the same as an ageing squad full stop. I named the players I thought we should be thinking about 'reinforcing' and they are all fairly close to my guesstimate ages. Happy birthday to Tim Ream who was thirty one in October apparently. He might have got some fudge as a present who knows. Now of course thirty one is not too old if you are really good but he is just about good on a good day although he has the important caveat of the rest of the defence not exactly shining. With the arrival of Hector you are writing off five of the current squad, if I understand it correctly, so is that not a sign of a weak squad? I think we would be happier if we all knew Hector would have to fight hard for a starting place when you consider we signed him twenty odd games ago.
I have not questioned the average age of the team, like you I can't really be bothered, but I like the fact we have Rodak, Sess developing within the first team squad set up, youngsters on the bench and rumours linking us with decent youngsters elsewhere.......... building blocks perhaps?
Interesting point regarding the Europa squad. How many of the current squad would get in it to make it better?
Warping the truth?
Sgt Fulham. Yeah you are right for which I apologise.
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 17, 2019, 02:57:25 PM
"An ageing squad in key areas" is not the same as an ageing squad full stop.
Fine but the bench is not a "key area"
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 17, 2019, 02:57:25 PM
With the arrival of Hector you are writing off five of the current squad, if I understand it correctly, so is that not a sign of a weak squad?
No, I'm saying having a young squad with a few subs in the latter part of their prime is not anywhere near having "an ageing squad in key areas"
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 17, 2019, 02:57:25 PM
Interesting point regarding the Europa squad. How many of the current squad would get in it to make it better?
Laughable, again, that you would even begin to think it relevant, in a debate about whether we're good enough for promotion from the second tier, that the current squad is not as good as the squad that made the European cup final
Hang on a sec Statto. You raised the Europa, I simply followed it along as it is a point of interest in the current debate about team/squad strength and depth. Part of the debate is how good some people think it is and that Parker is not getting enough out of them. There are others that feel the squad has some flaws and thus is not all conquering. We have done the comparisons on who would walk into a Prem team or a top six Championship team and how we miss Fredericks but we have'nt done Hangaland versus Mawson or an in form BZ verses Mitro. In the context of the debate on how good this squad is, or is'nt, another comparison might show that we have not evolved much at all and the Khan legacy currently hangs on two disastrous periods in our history with a third in the wings.
However this Parker Out debate is getting school playground stuff. I support Khans appointment that's it. You clearly don't. That's fine.
I reckon after the last three matches and the results they entailed, that we desperately need a massive game from every single player against Leeds to get back on the horse, it's even more important that we give them a bloody nose.
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 17, 2019, 04:57:01 PM
Hang on a sec Statto. You raised the Europa, I simply followed it along as it is a point of interest in the current debate about team/squad strength and depth. Part of the debate is how good some people think it is and that Parker is not getting enough out of them. There are others that feel the squad has some flaws and thus is not all conquering. We have done the comparisons on who would walk into a Prem team or a top six Championship team and how we miss Fredericks but we have'nt done Hangaland versus Mawson or an in form BZ verses Mitro. In the context of the debate on how good this squad is, or is'nt, another comparison might show that we have not evolved much at all and the Khan legacy currently hangs on two disastrous periods in our history with a third in the wings.
However this Parker Out debate is getting school playground stuff. I support Khans appointment that's it. You clearly don't. That's fine.
Hmmmm ... no, Statto makes a relevant point. Why even attempt to compare a squad that finished 7th in the premier and reached a major European final to a side who's remit was to get promoted from the 2nd tier? (A squad many in & outside the club believed to be packed full of quality for THIS LEVEL and one that has underperformed) It's chalk & cheese. The squad may be unbalanced in part and to a small degree there's some slight oversight from Tony Khan's perspective but the fact this squad has underachieved, is as unbalanced as it seems & doesn't gel as a unit is down mostly to the manager/coach who's job it is to get the best out of the players at his disposal. I can easily argue that the likes of Cavaleiro & Knockaert are underperforming as they thrive in a side that attacks with more urgency & rapidity, that Mitro is often isolated and compromised due to the way Parker sets us up. Similar questions can be asked about selection and deployment of roles in midfield & defence. It all seems so very badly coinceived. I've seldom seen a manager so often tactically out-done as I have with Parker.
I am more pragmatic about Fulham's set up under the Khans, and measure performance across the various operators who may be seen to have an effect on the Club's success. Significantly under the Khans I have not seen a capacity to build a squad rather than buy a squad, the former being a markedly better value for money exercise. We have sold, not consolidated loans, or lost too many good assets for my liking, even when they have worked if not to perfection but as close as you are likely to get. Jokanovic dealt with that by suggesting TK should get on with his job and leave team management to him, commenting on TK's choices via his team picks. Ranieri's time with TK is largely confusing; promises unfulfilled. Parker, we are told, participated, and yet wasn't there much confusion on that last day of the window? And so, in all the time TK has managed recruitment nobody has had a particularly clear concept of team building rather than buying. Jokanovic, via his longevity, probably got closest to a solution - let TK get on with it, but the last two summers prove what a tough job recruitment is even when you have loads of money. Better to build slowly but surely and waste as little resources as you can.
Parker may be a poor coach but only time can prove that, and would you really trust TK to find us a halfway decent replacement given his track record? Now if FFC were to sign a top class DoF, could that start a proper building job by really having a finger on the pulses that matter?
Quote from: toshes mate on December 18, 2019, 09:43:16 AM
I am more pragmatic about Fulham's set up under the Khans, and measure performance across the various operators who may be seen to have an effect on the Club's success. Significantly under the Khans I have not seen a capacity to build a squad rather than buy a squad, the former being a markedly better value for money exercise. We have sold, not consolidated loans, or lost too many good assets for my liking, even when they have worked if not to perfection but as close as you are likely to get. Jokanovic dealt with that by suggesting TK should get on with his job and leave team management to him, commenting on TK's choices via his team picks. Ranieri's time with TK is largely confusing; promises unfulfilled. Parker, we are told, participated, and yet wasn't there much confusion on that last day of the window? And so, in all the time TK has managed recruitment nobody has had a particularly clear concept of team building rather than buying. Jokanovic, via his longevity, probably got closest to a solution - let TK get on with it, but the last two summers prove what a tough job recruitment is even when you have loads of money. Better to build slowly but surely and waste as little resources as you can.
Parker may be a poor coach but only time can prove that, and would you really trust TK to find us a halfway decent replacement given his track record? Now if FFC were to sign a top class DoF, could that start a proper building job by really having a finger on the pulses that matter?
Largely agree with all of that. A squad built over time will also have those very important ingredients of chemistry & team spirit over one chucked together with constant purchases & loans. In such a system (which I would prefer to see), youngsters like O'Riley would be getting their chance and we would be scouring the lower leagues, buying & giving players a chance to develop and come through (Where does the next Horsefield or Finnan come from otherwise) - the loans are a quick & relatively risk free way to try & obtain instant success, but mean every season you're changing half your side. A new DOF or at least TK recognising his lack of in depth knowledge of football & the English game and recruiting a right hand man who has that knowledge would be a step forward.
However not withstanding the above I stand firmly by my assertion that Parker should be getting a lot more from what he's been given. The owners should seriously entertain the merits of a more organic squad growth though.
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on December 18, 2019, 08:45:30 AM
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 17, 2019, 04:57:01 PM
Hang on a sec Statto. You raised the Europa, I simply followed it along as it is a point of interest in the current debate about team/squad strength and depth. Part of the debate is how good some people think it is and that Parker is not getting enough out of them. There are others that feel the squad has some flaws and thus is not all conquering. We have done the comparisons on who would walk into a Prem team or a top six Championship team and how we miss Fredericks but we have'nt done Hangaland versus Mawson or an in form BZ verses Mitro. In the context of the debate on how good this squad is, or is'nt, another comparison might show that we have not evolved much at all and the Khan legacy currently hangs on two disastrous periods in our history with a third in the wings.
However this Parker Out debate is getting school playground stuff. I support Khans appointment that's it. You clearly don't. That's fine.
Hmmmm ... no, Statto makes a relevant point. Why even attempt to compare a squad that finished 7th in the premier and reached a major European final to a side who's remit was to get promoted from the 2nd tier? (A squad many in & outside the club believed to be packed full of quality for THIS LEVEL and one that has underperformed) It's chalk & cheese. The squad may be unbalanced in part and to a small degree there's some slight oversight from Tony Khan's perspective but the fact this squad has underachieved, is as unbalanced as it seems & doesn't gel as a unit is down mostly to the manager/coach who's job it is to get the best out of the players at his disposal. I can easily argue that the likes of Cavaleiro & Knockaert are underperforming as they thrive in a side that attacks with more urgency & rapidity, that Mitro is often isolated and compromised due to the way Parker sets us up. Similar questions can be asked about selection and deployment of roles in midfield & defence. It all seems so very badly coinceived. I've seldom seen a manager so often tactically out-done as I have with Parker.
Jeeeeezus.
Linked to the discussion point that this squad might not be good enough, is underperforming or some notice needs to be given to some players getting on a bit I responded to,
"I'd also love to compare it to the Europe league squad which was almost entirely that age or older"
I called that an interesting point, as any comparison with that team would be, but I did not over analyse it, I just posed the question which would probably have the same answers as recent questions on a similar theme. Sorry to intrude on your forum.
Quote from: RaySmith on December 16, 2019, 03:20:59 PM
You say keep it polite, but your post is full of personal abuse of a Fulham ex-player now manager, that goes beyond discussion of whatever professional failings Parker might have.
This toxic, hysterical atmosphere, and obsession with success, with no room for any kind of failure, that has infected football, will drive away decent fans.
Since I've been supporting Fulham, since the early 60s, we haven't actually had that much success, and i suppose that if that is what i craved, i would have gone and watched another London tam.
Though, before anyone jumps down my throat, i do want Fulham to do well, always want to see them win, but they are my team and i support them and through thick and thin.
Yes, criticise players and manager, of course, we all do that, but thee days it's well over the top, as if nothing and noone is ever good enough.
100% agree with all you have to say.
Quote from: toshes mate on December 18, 2019, 09:43:16 AM
Parker may be a poor coach but only time can prove that, and would you really trust TK to find us a halfway decent replacement given his track record? Now if FFC were to sign a top class DoF, could that start a proper building job by really having a finger on the pulses that matter?
The thing is that TK, unlike Parker, has learned from his mistakes and seems to be improving. Bringing in Hector in August would probably have made us better and I'm sceptical about TK's explanation of why that wasn't possible, but that aside, he did a 9 out of 10 job this summer IMO. And by getting proven Championship quality, and options to buy in the loan deals, he avoided specific mistakes he'd made in the past.
He clearly made a mistake hiring Parker, but having already tried both foreign (Magath) and domestic (all the others) hires, both new (Mulensteen, Symons) and experienced (Magath, Jokanovic and Ranieri) managers, giving the existing manager a chance in the new season (Jol, Symons and Magath) vs weilding the axe, and so on, I can well understand why he might now be at a loss as to which is the best approach. Promoting a young, English coach already at the club, ostensibly (albeit not in reality) in the mould of Eddie Howe, was a perfectly reasonable idea. Even now, very few on this forum seem to agree where our next appointment should come from or what type of manager they should be.
Phil Brown. GEDDIMIN
Quote from: HectorWeso on December 18, 2019, 02:13:46 PM
Phil Brown. GEDDIMIN
Despite our owners vast riches, we still couldn't afford to keep him in fake tan!
Quote from: RaySmith on December 16, 2019, 03:20:59 PM
Quote from: sumofallparts on December 16, 2019, 02:27:57 PM
My two-pennorth. Never liked Parker. As a coach, as a player; as a person he is monotone and lacks any charisma.
His starting 11 is often hard to fathom, tactically naive, questionable formations, poor substitutions, no fire or passion. He stands there with his hands in his pocket hoping...
He has hawked himself around nearly every London club as a player; Charlton, Chelsea, West Ham, Spurs and finally, us. Like a farewell tour, we were silly enough to get him at the end of his career, and then, get him back at the start of his managerial one.
He did his primary coaching at Spurs, is that not a big enough hint? The only reason he is with us as Manager (or Head Coach if you like) is because Spurs and none of the other London clubs he has been with offered him the top job!! We did.
He is not a long loyal servant of Fulham. He took his pension with us and then got an apprentiship here too! Double whammy.
He needs to go - ASAP - or I will re-post this in 8 weeks time with my head in my hands. Just to say, these people are available; all of whom would be better. (realistic targets)
Sam Allardyce
Javi Gracia / Quique Sanches Flores (these might be the same person!)
David Moyes
Chris Hughton
Alan Pardew
Alex McLeish
Martin O'Neill
Tony Pulis
Ideally we need an experienced Manager - defence first - then build and attack. Team spirit - fight with every fibre, every week. Someone to fire the troops - scare the hell out of them - but get them organised and bring back some pride playing for the shirt.
Anyway, i'll end with a final thought - of course I'd rather the team was winning - with Parker - I hate change, but I can't see this panning out well. For me its Big Sam or David Moyes. EXPERIENCE ! As ever, if you don't agree with me, keep it polite, we are all fans and even if we disagree, we need to keep it polite. COYW ! (and yes, been a fan a long time, STH, etc!)
You say keep it polite, but your post is full of personal abuse of a Fulham ex-player now manager, that goes beyond discussion of whatever professional failings Parker might have.
This toxic, hysterical atmosphere, and obsession with success, with no room for any kind of failure, that has infected football, will drive away decent fans.
Since I've been supporting Fulham, since the early 60s, we haven't actually had that much success, and i suppose that if that is what i craved, i would have gone and watched another London tam.
Though, before anyone jumps down my throat, i do want Fulham to do well, always want to see them win, but they are my team and i support them and through thick and thin.
Yes, criticise players and manager, of course, we all do that, but thee days it's well over the top, as if nothing and noone is ever good enough.
Ray Smith,
I shall not be jumping down your throat, in fact well said and I agree with you.
This still applies.
It certainly does, the bloke is useless
No it doesn't and never has
Its not Parkers fault that Bryan and Mawson are half asleep most of the time,and he doesn't at moment have anyone better to put in.
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on December 26, 2019, 06:26:28 PM
Its not Parkers fault that Bryan and Mawson are half asleep most of the time,and he doesn't at moment have anyone better to put in.
The fact it happens most games makes it his fault.
I imagine it Parkers fault that the ref didn't spot the handball for their second goal
or the push in the back for their third.
Quote from: sarnian on December 26, 2019, 06:32:32 PM
I imagine it Parkers fault that the ref didn't spot the handball for their second goal
No, but the player was unmarked 8 yards from goal; this needn't - shouldn't, even - have been the case.
Not Hughton !
Quote from: Robbie on December 26, 2019, 06:50:49 PM
Not Hughton !
It will not be anybody. We have a manager in place who will be here at the end of the season. Get used to it.
Some people should wait a couple hours or days before posting after an unsatisfied result. Writing all stuff that comes to your mind based on just emotions isn't taken seriously.
Replacing Scott Parker will not increase our chances of staying in top 6, it may even be detrimental. I am just pleased we are currently in joint fourth.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 27, 2019, 12:11:19 AM
Replacing Scott Parker will not increase our chances of staying in top 6, it may even be detrimental. I am just pleased we are currently in joint fourth.
Will not is a strong statement.
Parker is drastically underperforming with the squad at his disposal.
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 27, 2019, 12:25:33 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 27, 2019, 12:11:19 AM
Replacing Scott Parker will not increase our chances of staying in top 6, it may even be detrimental. I am just pleased we are currently in joint fourth.
Will not is a strong statement.
Parker is drastically underperforming with the squad at his disposal.
Yes you are right, I shall amend 'will not' to 'probably not', but I am of the opinion that the squad and it's potential is overestimated. Which may explain why many supporters have limited patience with the manager.
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on December 26, 2019, 06:26:28 PM
Its not Parkers fault that Bryan and Mawson are half asleep most of the time,and he doesn't at moment have anyone better to put in.
You're talking about two players who, when we signed them, were the best LB in the championship and a CB recently in the England squad. The equivalent now would be players like Kieran Gibbs and James Tarkowski. Realisticalky, we couldn't even get them to join us - so how on earth would we get "anyone better"?
Then we have to make the defenders we have at our disposal play as a unit in a system that does not encourage opponents to press high and push up on our last man, and that also includes the goalkeeper.
I would imagine that when the players see the replays, they will bury their heads in their hands. The defence is creating problems that do not exist, not so much as shooting yourself in the foot, more like blowing it off completely.
Must be a different Mawson that was in England squads,he's not even EFL level ability wise.
Mawson has often looked good this season in a traditional cb role, but his giving the ball away when pressed by opponents, like yesterday, undermine him, and the team, who did brilliantly to come back three times from being behind, and save the point.
It's not just him , but Ream, who got away with one yesterday, when the attacker missed with his shot, and Rodak. I also wonder about the communication between the three of them.
AS Woolly said, our defenders will bury their heads in shame when they see the replays, but even City make mistakes playing out from the back. But it's really costing us, and subverts our undoubted creative and attacking quality.
Obviously everyone at the club must be aware that this needs to be addressed.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 27, 2019, 12:41:42 AM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 27, 2019, 12:25:33 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 27, 2019, 12:11:19 AM
Replacing Scott Parker will not increase our chances of staying in top 6, it may even be detrimental. I am just pleased we are currently in joint fourth.
Will not is a strong statement.
Parker is drastically underperforming with the squad at his disposal.
Yes you are right, I shall amend 'will not' to 'probably not', but I am of the opinion that the squad and it's potential is overestimated. Which may explain why many supporters have limited patience with the manager.
I can only agree with this sentiment. The team was hyped up in the media as the 'best' championship team, the one 'guaranteed promotion', the 'strongest' and we all know how right the various journos have been over the years. If people wish to believe this, and they have a right to do so, then that is what it is, but there are some on here that failed to engage in the hype and those are perhaps the ones that are jaded as to how good we really are and how much any manager would be able to do.
Hughton is terrible choice. Ask any Brighton fan. Keep Scotty, he plays the right way just not very well at the moment. He is learning.
Get the defence sorted and we will be fine, even really good. Face it this is much better than last season and although frustrating we are not going down.It is a fun league and frankly I do not want promotion I would far rather we had a good season with some good wins and all the madness of the Championship. It's fun, Leeds game was great !
Who wants a boring 1-0 winning team all the time ? That is tedious and certainly not the Fulham way. Go support another club, that is simply not the FFC way.
Quote from: Logicalman on December 27, 2019, 12:46:51 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 27, 2019, 12:41:42 AM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 27, 2019, 12:25:33 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 27, 2019, 12:11:19 AM
Replacing Scott Parker will not increase our chances of staying in top 6, it may even be detrimental. I am just pleased we are currently in joint fourth.
Will not is a strong statement.
Parker is drastically underperforming with the squad at his disposal.
Yes you are right, I shall amend 'will not' to 'probably not', but I am of the opinion that the squad and it's potential is overestimated. Which may explain why many supporters have limited patience with the manager.
I can only agree with this sentiment. The team was hyped up in the media as the 'best' championship team, the one 'guaranteed promotion', the 'strongest' and we all know how right the various journos have been over the years. If people wish to believe this, and they have a right to do so, then that is what it is, but there are some on here that failed to engage in the hype and those are perhaps the ones that are jaded as to how good we really are and how much any manager would be able to do.
But there are players 'in the squad' who have had mere fleeting opportunity, those who have been cursed for their 'mistakes' or 'inadequacies', while others have been persisted with in spite of their 'mistakes' or 'inadequacies'. That turns selection into something of a puzzle for players to fathom out for themselves and does not breed best of bunch. With Jokanovic there always seemed to be method in madness that was sometimes spelled out by him, notably the conundrum of where to play that mature for his years youngster RS, when the DoF hadn't replaced a sold on decent left back for example. There has been none of that simple reflection on where and how the problems are being derived and understood from Parker and I put that down, after this long into his tenure, as his inability to fathom where and what the problems are. Parker is far too muddled in my view and that is or may be damaging player confidence and understanding.
Quote from: toshes mate on December 28, 2019, 08:55:24 AM
Quote from: Logicalman on December 27, 2019, 12:46:51 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 27, 2019, 12:41:42 AM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 27, 2019, 12:25:33 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 27, 2019, 12:11:19 AM
Replacing Scott Parker will not increase our chances of staying in top 6, it may even be detrimental. I am just pleased we are currently in joint fourth.
Will not is a strong statement.
Parker is drastically underperforming with the squad at his disposal.
Yes you are right, I shall amend 'will not' to 'probably not', but I am of the opinion that the squad and it's potential is overestimated. Which may explain why many supporters have limited patience with the manager.
I can only agree with this sentiment. The team was hyped up in the media as the 'best' championship team, the one 'guaranteed promotion', the 'strongest' and we all know how right the various journos have been over the years. If people wish to believe this, and they have a right to do so, then that is what it is, but there are some on here that failed to engage in the hype and those are perhaps the ones that are jaded as to how good we really are and how much any manager would be able to do.
But there are players 'in the squad' who have had mere fleeting opportunity, those who have been cursed for their 'mistakes' or 'inadequacies', while others have been persisted with in spite of their 'mistakes' or 'inadequacies'. That turns selection into something of a puzzle for players to fathom out for themselves and does not breed best of bunch. With Jokanovic there always seemed to be method in madness that was sometimes spelled out by him, notably the conundrum of where to play that mature for his years youngster RS, when the DoF hadn't replaced a sold on decent left back for example. There has been none of that simple reflection on where and how the problems are being derived and understood from Parker and I put that down, after this long into his tenure, as his inability to fathom where and what the problems are. Parker is far too muddled in my view and that is or may be damaging player confidence and understanding.
But Tosh comparisons with JOka are more weighted in his favour. 'The run' had some key players playing the football of their lives and this was not the coached version but the natural ability they had that forged unlikely partnerships. We also had very few selection problems through injury or suspensions. I remember Button and Ream being regular MotM contenders and of course Ream went on to win the big prize so we invited pressure on our defence even then. As soon as JOka had to face selection problems and the pressure of the Prem he ended up in a similar mire to the one Parker finds himself in.
Sess in full flow right now would be a joy but then the back four would be leaker than it is now.
Quote from: clarkey on December 28, 2019, 05:18:17 AM
Hughton is terrible choice. Ask any Brighton fan. Keep Scotty, he plays the right way just not very well at the moment. He is learning.
Get the defence sorted and we will be fine, even really good. Face it this is much better than last season and although frustrating we are not going down.It is a fun league and frankly I do not want promotion I would far rather we had a good season with some good wins and all the madness of the Championship. It's fun, Leeds game was great !
Who wants a boring 1-0 winning team all the time ? That is tedious and certainly not the Fulham way. Go support another club, that is simply not the FFC way.
Hughton, in every world, will be better than Parker.
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 28, 2019, 09:23:57 AM
But Tosh comparisons with JOka are more weighted in his favour. 'The run' had some key players playing the football of their lives and this was not the coached version but the natural ability they had that forged unlikely partnerships.
Nearly spat out my cornflakes when I read this!
Does it apply to Hodgson as well - was it just luck and "unlikely partnerships" that made the likes of Etuhu and Zamora better than Cannavaro and Del Piero?
And I suppose the difference between Hodgson and say, Magath or Sanchez, was that Magath and Sanchez just didn't have that luck.
Since coaching makes no difference according to you, perhaps we should just stick the tea lady in charge and wait for her to get lucky with "key players playing the football of their lives" and "unlikely partnerships"
Quote from: Statto on December 28, 2019, 10:24:51 AM
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 28, 2019, 09:23:57 AM
But Tosh comparisons with JOka are more weighted in his favour. 'The run' had some key players playing the football of their lives and this was not the coached version but the natural ability they had that forged unlikely partnerships.
Nearly spat out my cornflakes when I read this!
Does it apply to Hodgson as well - was it just luck and "unlikely partnerships" that made the likes of Etuhu and Zamora better than Cannavaro and Del Piero?
And I suppose the difference between Hodgson and say, Magath or Sanchez, was that Magath and Sanchez just didn't have that luck.
Since coaching makes no difference according to you, perhaps we should just stick the tea lady in charge and wait for her to get lucky with "key players playing the football of their lives" and "unlikely partnerships"
Wow.
Seems to me that the majority of Parker Outers are the same who have called for every manager we have had to be sacked. All they come up with is Big Sam, Moyes, Pulis, Hughton, & a host of other journey man managers.
The end of the season is the time to re- assess, not now.
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 28, 2019, 09:27:33 AM
Quote from: clarkey on December 28, 2019, 05:18:17 AM
Hughton is terrible choice. Ask any Brighton fan. Keep Scotty, he plays the right way just not very well at the moment. He is learning.
Get the defence sorted and we will be fine, even really good. Face it this is much better than last season and although frustrating we are not going down.It is a fun league and frankly I do not want promotion I would far rather we had a good season with some good wins and all the madness of the Championship. It's fun, Leeds game was great !
Who wants a boring 1-0 winning team all the time ? That is tedious and certainly not the Fulham way. Go support another club, that is simply not the FFC way.
Hughton, in every world, will be better than Parker.
In every word I would disagree with you. I'm a bit on the fence where Parker is concerned but Hughton? No thanks.
Quote from: Twig on December 28, 2019, 12:45:23 PM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 28, 2019, 09:27:33 AM
Quote from: clarkey on December 28, 2019, 05:18:17 AM
Hughton is terrible choice. Ask any Brighton fan. Keep Scotty, he plays the right way just not very well at the moment. He is learning.
Get the defence sorted and we will be fine, even really good. Face it this is much better than last season and although frustrating we are not going down.It is a fun league and frankly I do not want promotion I would far rather we had a good season with some good wins and all the madness of the Championship. It's fun, Leeds game was great !
Who wants a boring 1-0 winning team all the time ? That is tedious and certainly not the Fulham way. Go support another club, that is simply not the FFC way.
Hughton, in every world, will be better than Parker.
In every word I would disagree with you. I'm a bit on the fence where Parker is concerned but Hughton? No thanks.
In what department is Parker a better manager than Hughton?
I have tried to stay out of this argument because I dislike the stridency and absolutism in many of the posts. There seems to be little room for more balanced views.
I share some of the frustrations both about Parker's slow, possession based style and his seeming reluctance to change things (Leeds excepted). However he is just the sort of young British manager that many of us want to see given more opportunities and he will need some time. I wish we had an experienced DoF who could guide him but we have the hapless Khan.
I am also in the camp that says this is not quite the squad some hyped it up to be. It is certainly unbalanced, we have strength in depth in some areas and a woeful lack in others.
My inclination is to give him this transfer period and then to the end of the season and then assess.
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 28, 2019, 12:47:19 PM
Quote from: Twig on December 28, 2019, 12:45:23 PM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 28, 2019, 09:27:33 AM
Quote from: clarkey on December 28, 2019, 05:18:17 AM
Hughton is terrible choice. Ask any Brighton fan. Keep Scotty, he plays the right way just not very well at the moment. He is learning.
Get the defence sorted and we will be fine, even really good. Face it this is much better than last season and although frustrating we are not going down.It is a fun league and frankly I do not want promotion I would far rather we had a good season with some good wins and all the madness of the Championship. It's fun, Leeds game was great !
Who wants a boring 1-0 winning team all the time ? That is tedious and certainly not the Fulham way. Go support another club, that is simply not the FFC way.
Hughton, in every world, will be better than Parker.
In every word I would disagree with you. I'm a bit on the fence where Parker is concerned but Hughton? No thanks.
In what department is Parker a better manager than Hughton?
Whilst I sometimes find Parker's preferred style a bit frustrating (there are also times when it is delightful), there have been very few occasions when I have watched a Hughton side and thought; I wish we played like that.
Quote from: Statto on December 28, 2019, 10:24:51 AM
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 28, 2019, 09:23:57 AM
But Tosh comparisons with JOka are more weighted in his favour. 'The run' had some key players playing the football of their lives and this was not the coached version but the natural ability they had that forged unlikely partnerships.
Nearly spat out my cornflakes when I read this!
Does it apply to Hodgson as well - was it just luck and "unlikely partnerships" that made the likes of Etuhu and Zamora better than Cannavaro and Del Piero?
And I suppose the difference between Hodgson and say, Magath or Sanchez, was that Magath and Sanchez just didn't have that luck.
Since coaching makes no difference according to you, perhaps we should just stick the tea lady in charge and wait for her to get lucky with "key players playing the football of their lives" and "unlikely partnerships"
Jeeeeezuz! Tosh mentioned JOka that's all. Try a smaller spoonful and read the flipping post properly. The anti Parker venom is getting a bit boring now.
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 28, 2019, 02:58:44 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 28, 2019, 10:24:51 AM
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 28, 2019, 09:23:57 AM
But Tosh comparisons with JOka are more weighted in his favour. 'The run' had some key players playing the football of their lives and this was not the coached version but the natural ability they had that forged unlikely partnerships.
Nearly spat out my cornflakes when I read this!
Does it apply to Hodgson as well - was it just luck and "unlikely partnerships" that made the likes of Etuhu and Zamora better than Cannavaro and Del Piero?
And I suppose the difference between Hodgson and say, Magath or Sanchez, was that Magath and Sanchez just didn't have that luck.
Since coaching makes no difference according to you, perhaps we should just stick the tea lady in charge and wait for her to get lucky with "key players playing the football of their lives" and "unlikely partnerships"
Jeeeeezuz! Tosh mentioned JOka that's all. Try a smaller spoonful and read the flipping post properly. The anti Parker venom is getting a bit boring now.
Happy for you to explain how you can tell the difference between (a) a manager getting the best out of a group of players and (b) "not the coached version but the natural ability they had that forged unlikely partnerships"
And I'm genuinely intrigued to hear which of (a) or (b) you'd apply to Hodgson, for example (and again, how you can tell)
Quote from: Twig on December 28, 2019, 01:05:16 PM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 28, 2019, 12:47:19 PM
Quote from: Twig on December 28, 2019, 12:45:23 PM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 28, 2019, 09:27:33 AM
Quote from: clarkey on December 28, 2019, 05:18:17 AM
Hughton is terrible choice. Ask any Brighton fan. Keep Scotty, he plays the right way just not very well at the moment. He is learning.
Get the defence sorted and we will be fine, even really good. Face it this is much better than last season and although frustrating we are not going down.It is a fun league and frankly I do not want promotion I would far rather we had a good season with some good wins and all the madness of the Championship. It's fun, Leeds game was great !
Who wants a boring 1-0 winning team all the time ? That is tedious and certainly not the Fulham way. Go support another club, that is simply not the FFC way.
Hughton, in every world, will be better than Parker.
In every word I would disagree with you. I'm a bit on the fence where Parker is concerned but Hughton? No thanks.
In what department is Parker a better manager than Hughton?
Whilst I sometimes find Parker's preferred style a bit frustrating (there are also times when it is delightful), there have been very few occasions when I have watched a Hughton side and thought; I wish we played like that.
I do agree. But my point still stands. I have no doubt we'd be a better side under Hughton.
Dean Smith would be another I'd like to see us approach if he gets sacked.
Knows the championship, and plays a good style.
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 28, 2019, 12:47:19 PM
Quote from: Twig on December 28, 2019, 12:45:23 PM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 28, 2019, 09:27:33 AM
Quote from: clarkey on December 28, 2019, 05:18:17 AM
Hughton is terrible choice. Ask any Brighton fan. Keep Scotty, he plays the right way just not very well at the moment. He is learning.
Get the defence sorted and we will be fine, even really good. Face it this is much better than last season and although frustrating we are not going down.It is a fun league and frankly I do not want promotion I would far rather we had a good season with some good wins and all the madness of the Championship. It's fun, Leeds game was great !
Who wants a boring 1-0 winning team all the time ? That is tedious and certainly not the Fulham way. Go support another club, that is simply not the FFC way.
Hughton, in every world, will be better than Parker.
In every word I would disagree with you. I'm a bit on the fence where Parker is concerned but Hughton? No thanks.
In what department is Parker a better manager than Hughton?
Parker has a job & Hughton hasn´t. If he was that good he would have been snapped up by now.
Under the circumstances I thought Hughton was unfortunate to be sacked by both Brighton & Hove Albion. However, his system of play will bore the pants off us, more than you can ever imagine, with no guarantee that he will be more successful that Scott Parker. The grass always looks greener on the other side, but in Hughtons case it was more parched than fertile.
Quote from: Statto on December 28, 2019, 10:24:51 AM
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 28, 2019, 09:23:57 AM
But Tosh comparisons with JOka are more weighted in his favour. 'The run' had some key players playing the football of their lives and this was not the coached version but the natural ability they had that forged unlikely partnerships.
Nearly spat out my cornflakes when I read this!
Does it apply to Hodgson as well - was it just luck and "unlikely partnerships" that made the likes of Etuhu and Zamora better than Cannavaro and Del Piero?
And I suppose the difference between Hodgson and say, Magath or Sanchez, was that Magath and Sanchez just didn't have that luck.
Since coaching makes no difference according to you, perhaps we should just stick the tea lady in charge and wait for her to get lucky with "key players playing the football of their lives" and "unlikely partnerships"
Whilst toying with my pain au chocolate this morning I wondered how on earth Hodgson, Sanchez and a couple of Italians got involved in a thread about Parker and my comments to Tosh. I had to look through my coaching manuals to see if I had missed something and then reread my post "key players playing the football of their lives". Did I misread Cairney, Stefjo and Sess getting a host of EFL awards during the period in question and for the most part has that form not been missing for quite a while now, pre Parker as well. Cairney was dictating games and that speed of thought and execution is not coached. He had Stefjo alongside doing the hard yards but also scoring goals. Unexpected bonus? Unlikely partnership? There has not been a similarly effective partnership since despite the huge amount of money spent to get one.
Back in the day I was at a seminar about FA Centres of Excellence. Terry Venables talked about how the selection process for centres could actually be detrimental to the game as under the criteria set then, circa 2002, the likes of Gascogne, Le Tissier and Gerry Francis would not get in. The whole process had to be flexible enough to allow this type of flair player to thrive and not be shackled by systems, results and tables. That approach only partly worked but many senior coaches left a space on the register for a player that 'had something special'. For the most part these players would be practicing free kicks, hitting targets at 25-30 metres or keeping the ball whilst being shadowed and not playing five a sides, fine tuning two touches or defending set plays. Cairneys natural flair got him and us out of many a problem. Do you think a coach took him to one side and showed him how to receive a ball, shield it, ride a tackle, change direction and lay off a twenty yard pass. Not many coaches can actually do that so it was 'natural flair'.
@ScalleysDad
I'm not disputing the concept of "natural flair" but if that's all that matters then why, according to you, is Cairney (and almost all our players) not doing as well now under Parker? Has he lost that "natural flair"?
Similarly, why did ostensibly average players like Etuhu get us to a European Cup final under Hodgson? Was that just "natural flair" too?
Nothing to do with the managers at the time? Nothing to do with coaching, advice, motivation, tactics, subs, a setup that exploit each player's best qualities, etc?
Quote from: Statto on December 29, 2019, 02:03:05 PM
@ScalleysDad
I'm not disputing the concept of "natural flair" but if that's all that matters then why, according to you, is Cairney not doing as well now? Has he lost that "natural flair"?
Similarly, why did ostensibly average players like Etuhu get us to a European Cup final under Hodgson? Was that just "natural flair" too?
Nothing to do with the managers at the time? Nothing to do with coaching, advice, motivation, tactics that exploit each player's best qualities, etc?
I think that plays into it, totally, but just as you point out Natural Flair is not alone in determining outcome, perhaps neither is just the coaching, etc. I guess the trick is that a good coach can spot Natural Flair and incorporate it into their tactics, or adjust their tactics to accommodate natural flair?
Quote from: Logicalman on December 29, 2019, 02:06:03 PM
I guess the trick is that a good coach can spot Natural Flair and incorporate it into their tactics, or adjust their tactics to accommodate natural flair?
Nail on head. Ergo Parker is not a "good coach"
Quote from: Statto on December 29, 2019, 02:03:05 PM
@ScalleysDad
I'm not disputing the concept of "natural flair" but if that's all that matters then why, according to you, is Cairney (and almost all our players) not doing as well now under Parker? Has he lost that "natural flair"?
Similarly, why did ostensibly average players like Etuhu get us to a European Cup final under Hodgson? Was that just "natural flair" too?
Nothing to do with the managers at the time? Nothing to do with coaching, advice, motivation, tactics, subs, a setup that exploit each player's best qualities, etc?
None of our players were particularly good under both JOka and Ranieri last season and yes I believe he, Cairney, has lost 'it' but that has been the case for quite a while. Two years on, too many knocks, confidence shattered in the Prem? I saw a thread earlier where Cairney was dropped to the bench without a forum outcry which was sad to see. Parker was part of somebody else's game plan last year which was left in a royal mess for him to pick up. It would seem he had the support of key players then and I suppose by January 31st we will know if he stil has it. He seems to have been right about Onamah much to many posters angst.
As you mention Etuhu and Hodgson. Coaching, coaching and coaching and more of the same did that as well as a well drilled back four way better than what we have now. Some of Hodgsons sessions are a thing of beauty.
Parker will come good. Hodgson amongst many others says so.
Cairney looked really good today before picking up a niggle. Lost it? Not so sure.
Quote from: Statto on December 29, 2019, 02:08:43 PM
Quote from: Logicalman on December 29, 2019, 02:06:03 PM
I guess the trick is that a good coach can spot Natural Flair and incorporate it into their tactics, or adjust their tactics to accommodate natural flair?
Nail on head. Ergo Parker is not a "good coach"
Today's first half is one example of quite a few where I think it's pertinent that we hold off judging whether or not Scott Parker is a good coach or not.
At first I thought Bobby Reid wasn't made for our system...yet he's scored 4 in 4. I'd thought that Cyrus Christie was a poor FB, yet he's playing the position well. I definitely had started to have concerns about Josh Onomah (Scott's pupil) yet when he left the game today there was an obvious offensive drop off.
Scott is getting his feet wet this season. He's made poor decisions and he's made some good half time adjustments.
What I saw in the first 45 minutes today should be replicated every game, with hopefully an upgrade at both the CDM and CM positions helping us climb into the top 2.
I think Scott not being a consistently good coach is ok for this season. He's liked by the owners and players, the team will undoubtedly win more games than they lose...they'll get better...and "hopefully" he'll at worst have the team in the top 6 of 24 teams at seasons end.
Realistically I believe that of the 7 games we've lost this season, we could have won two and drawn 1. That would give us an extra 7 points, and we'd still be third! There are clubs like us that would love to have that problem. Parker is going to be a winner. With what, 8(?) managers in the past 10 years it's about time the bosses showed patience, courage and trust.
Quote from: AnOldBrownie on December 29, 2019, 10:54:16 PM
What I saw in the first 45 minutes today should be replicated every game, with hopefully an upgrade at both the CDM and CM positions helping us climb into the top 2.
I don't think we need any more central midfielders: apart from Reid, Onomah and Cairney that started today, we also have Johansen, Arter, McDonald and O'Riley - also Reid has played as part of the midfield three.
Let's assume we get those CDM and CM you want. Who are you going to leave out of the starting eleven from the three that started today?
Quote from: Twig on December 29, 2019, 09:18:53 PM
Cairney looked really good today before picking up a niggle. Lost it? Not so sure.
Yes, the man on the train said Cairney "looked more at ease". The Omanah effect, just a good day at the office or his form is picking up. What price on TC hitting top form with a more solid back four and a more aggressive midfield. Stranger things and all that.
