Friends of Fulham

Off today to get my vaccine jab at local hospital, my idea was I wouldn't get to a game this season. Not now.

Good man. I know its important to keep politics off this board but as someone who works in the Pharmaceutical industry, namely for one of those involved in the vaccine project I am glad you're taking the sensible option. I hope you make it to a game soon.

Quote from: Sgt Fulham on December 14, 2020, 10:08:16 AM
Good man. I know its important to keep politics off this board but as someone who works in the Pharmaceutical industry, namely for one of those involved in the vaccine project I am glad you're taking the sensible option. I hope you make it to a game soon.

Common sense shouldn't be political!

Interesting. I was an outpatient at St Georges last week and I walked past a vaccine clinic set up.

Do you mind if I ask - are you n a group identified as 'vulnerable'? Just wondering how this is all working as my in-laws in their 90s (but not out patients anywhere or in a care home) haven;t heard anything yet.

Flyingfish, yes I'm in that vulnerable group

Quote from: flyingfish on December 14, 2020, 10:12:59 AM
Interesting. I was an outpatient at St Georges last week and I walked past a vaccine clinic set up.

Do you mind if I ask - are you n a group identified as 'vulnerable'? Just wondering how this is all working as my in-laws in their 90s (but not out patients anywhere or in a care home) haven;t heard anything yet.

Maybe contact their GP -

The priority list is as follows:

1)residents in a care home for older adults and their carers
2)all those 80 years of age and over and frontline health and social care workers
3)all those 75 years of age and over
4)all those 70 years of age and over and clinically extremely vulnerable individuals [footnote 1]
5)all those 65 years of age and over
6)all individuals aged 16 years to 64 years with underlying health conditions which put them at higher risk of serious disease and mortality
7)all those 60 years of age and over
8)all those 55 years of age and over
9)all those 50 years of age and over

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/priority-groups-for-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-advice-from-the-jcvi-2-december-2020/priority-groups-for-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-advice-from-the-jcvi-2-december-2020#vaccine-priority-groups-advice-on-2-december-2020

Blingo still wont be taking it. Sorry but I don't trust any of the vaccines at the moment.

Quote from: blingo on December 14, 2020, 10:45:20 AM
Blingo still wont be taking it. Sorry but I don't trust any of the vaccines at the moment.

Ask the nurse if you can have it on the bottom, if you think it's going to hurt you, 'Carry On' fashion.

My wife and I are in category 5 and can't wait to get it. It's not just important for our protection, we both also see it as a social responsibility.

Quote from: Twig on December 14, 2020, 11:14:30 AM
My wife and I are in category 5 and can't wait to get it. It's not just important for our protection, we both also see it as a social responsibility.

THIS.

Not in any of the categories, but can't wait to get it.

Vaccine passports are the path back to a normal life. Bring on 2021!

I am having mine on Wednesday. I am 81 and a type one diabetic. Had no hesitations in accepting the invitation

Now is not the right time to surround yourself with positive people.

I am third in the list being 75 but I am concerned about any possible after effects.

092.gif

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 14, 2020, 11:40:22 AM
Now is not the right time to surround yourself with positive people.

:005:

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 11:16:31 AM

Quote from: Twig on December 14, 2020, 11:14:30 AM
My wife and I are in category 5 and can't wait to get it. It's not just important for our protection, we both also see it as a social responsibility.

THIS.

So right~ it is the responsible thing to do. I am certainly no fan of this government - but they have thrown money at the problem and as citizens we should play our part in trying to keep this virus at bay.

Group no 4. that's me.

Quote from: bog on December 14, 2020, 11:43:47 AM
I am third in the list being 75 but I am concerned about any possible after effects.

092.gif

I understand that you will have to wait for the second dose before before it will enable you to run a 4 minute mile.

Seriously though how are they working their way through each group, I am in group 2 and clinically at risk and haven't heard a word as yet. Is it a postcode lottery.

Well said Twig.Perfectly put.

The more who take it the sooner we get back to normal.The safer we are the less pressure on the NHS.

The anti vaxxers only have to look at the history of small pox, MMR and Polio. Who in their right mind would not take extra precautions if travelling up the Zambezi or going to India for example ? Who would not take an anti tetanus jab if they trod on a rusty nail ?

We could have a problem with Wednesday though...Tier Three for London would cancel fans going, that includes me and my boy. Real shame......

Why are people more frightened of the vaccine than three virus

Quote from: Andy S on December 14, 2020, 01:11:24 PM
Why are people more frightened of the vaccine than three virus

Simply put: This predates the current issues, and goes way back to early 20th Century, so the question isn't "Why are people more frightened of the vaccine than the virus", it's quite simply "Why are people wary of vaccinations in general", which is a much larger discussion, and is worldwide.

Quote from: clarkey on December 14, 2020, 01:06:47 PM
The anti vaxxers only have to look at the history of small pox, MMR and Polio. Who in their right mind would not take extra precautions if travelling up the Zambezi or going to India for example ? Who would not take an anti tetanus jab if they trod on a rusty nail ?

I don't think it's fair for those who are skeptical about the Covid Vaccine specifically to be conflated as one and the same as "anti-Vaxxers", as that is a term historically used for a group who have an entirely different set of views and largely different reasons for justifying their views. I for one have nothing against vaccination per se and agree that it is common sense for the elderly & vulnerable to take it (if they so choose).

Quote from: Andy S on December 14, 2020, 01:11:24 PM
Why are people more frightened of the vaccine than three virus

~80% of the population are asymptomatic to the virus, of those that aren't many still only suffer mild symptoms.

The vaccine however is an unprecedented technology which is still largely experimental.

The pharmaceutical companies behind their development aren't exactly a shining beacon of light either:

GlaxoSmithKline to Plead Guilty and Pay $3 Billion to Resolve Fraud Allegations and Failure to Report Safety Data (https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/glaxosmithkline-plead-guilty-and-pay-3-billion-resolve-fraud-allegations-and-failure-report)

Pfizer to Pay $2.3 Billion for Fraudulent Marketing (https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-largest-health-care-fraud-settlement-its-history)

Pharmaceutical Giant AstraZeneca to Pay $520 Million for Off-label Drug Marketing (https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/pharmaceutical-giant-astrazeneca-pay-520-million-label-drug-marketing)

I can't wait at 75 , hoping to get down to see my daughter on OZ sooner rather than later.

"I am in group 2 and clinically at risk"

I've several friends in this category (in the Harrow area). One now has an appointment for Wednesday, the other two haven't yet heard. That suggests there are quite a lot in this category relative to the number of vaccination slots available.

Quote from: Twig on December 14, 2020, 11:14:30 AM
My wife and I are in category 5 and can't wait to get it. It's not just important for our protection, we both also see it as a social responsibility.

:54:

Back home after jab, quite a few in queue, usual few groaning about thw waiting. while the nurses are working their socks off.

Quote from: clarkey on December 14, 2020, 01:06:47 PM
Well said Twig.Perfectly put.

The more who take it the sooner we get back to normal.The safer we are the less pressure on the NHS.

The anti vaxxers only have to look at the history of small pox, MMR and Polio. Who in their right mind would not take extra precautions if travelling up the Zambezi or going to India for example ? Who would not take an anti tetanus jab if they trod on a rusty nail ?

We could have a problem with Wednesday though...Tier Three for London would cancel fans going, that includes me and my boy. Real shame......

Breaking News - London just moved into Tier 3.

I am 80 and can't wait for mine. A centre is being opened at Epsom Race Course and that in my main hope.

Well done, Dodgin.

According to my family GPs there are a lot of reasons why people are not taking up the offer of the vaccine which include fear of exposure to the virus travelling to and from or at the site where the vaccination and recovery (approx. 20mins) is performed.  Since there are two such visits to be made there is a perceived double risk and it should be remembered that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does not offer immunity to the virus but does reduce the chances of serious symptoms if infected.  Full protection from bad infections is stated to be achieved a week after the second jab.   

The lack of take up may be why some health workers are getting ahead of the pecking order because a batch, once opened, has to be used up quickly.   

If an early chance was offered to me I would take it since, one way or another, it'll prove something, which is what all vaccines need to have to get more general acceptance.   However, I anticipate a fairly lengthy wait unless the other two vaccines awaiting approval appear.

Quote from: toshes mate on December 14, 2020, 03:38:07 PM
Well done, Dodgin.

According to my family GPs there are a lot of reasons why people are not taking up the offer of the vaccine which include fear of exposure to the virus travelling to and from or at the site where the vaccination and recovery (approx. 20mins) is performed.  Since there are two such visits to be made there is a perceived double risk and it should be remembered that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does not offer immunity to the virus but does reduce the chances of serious symptoms if infected.  Full protection from bad infections is stated to be achieved a week after the second jab.   

The lack of take up may be why some health workers are getting ahead of the pecking order because a batch, once opened, has to be used up quickly.   

If an early chance was offered to me I would take it since, one way or another, it'll prove something, which is what all vaccines need to have to get more general acceptance.   However, I anticipate a fairly lengthy wait unless the other two vaccines awaiting approval appear.

I'm hoping for the Oxford one but it's interesting that they're researching into whether different vaccines might complement each other and a combination prove more effective than one alone. By the time they get to most of us they might have more idea. 

Just curious- what is the expectation if you are under 50 and have no health issues? When do you think they will get through these first 9 phases? 3 months? 6 months?

Quote from: The Rock on December 14, 2020, 05:35:09 PM
Just curious- what is the expectation if you are under 50 and have no health issues? When do you think they will get through these first 9 phases? 3 months? 6 months?

Just guessing but I would reckon May/June or thereabouts.

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 03:50:59 PM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 14, 2020, 03:38:07 PM
Well done, Dodgin.

According to my family GPs there are a lot of reasons why people are not taking up the offer of the vaccine which include fear of exposure to the virus travelling to and from or at the site where the vaccination and recovery (approx. 20mins) is performed.  Since there are two such visits to be made there is a perceived double risk and it should be remembered that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does not offer immunity to the virus but does reduce the chances of serious symptoms if infected.  Full protection from bad infections is stated to be achieved a week after the second jab.   

The lack of take up may be why some health workers are getting ahead of the pecking order because a batch, once opened, has to be used up quickly.   

If an early chance was offered to me I would take it since, one way or another, it'll prove something, which is what all vaccines need to have to get more general acceptance.   However, I anticipate a fairly lengthy wait unless the other two vaccines awaiting approval appear.

I'm hoping for the Oxford one but it's interesting that they're researching into whether different vaccines might complement each other and a combination prove more effective than one alone. By the time they get to most of us they might have more idea. 

The Oxford vaccine was a two jab inoculation, in error, one of the jabs only contained half the vaccine. So they found by mistake that the one and a half jabs worked better then the two jabs. Because this didn't fit the profile of the trial which was based on two full jabs, they are having to look at others ways of moving ahead with their vaccine. 

Quote from: rebel on December 14, 2020, 07:09:31 PM

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 03:50:59 PM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 14, 2020, 03:38:07 PM
Well done, Dodgin.

According to my family GPs there are a lot of reasons why people are not taking up the offer of the vaccine which include fear of exposure to the virus travelling to and from or at the site where the vaccination and recovery (approx. 20mins) is performed.  Since there are two such visits to be made there is a perceived double risk and it should be remembered that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does not offer immunity to the virus but does reduce the chances of serious symptoms if infected.  Full protection from bad infections is stated to be achieved a week after the second jab.   

The lack of take up may be why some health workers are getting ahead of the pecking order because a batch, once opened, has to be used up quickly.   

If an early chance was offered to me I would take it since, one way or another, it'll prove something, which is what all vaccines need to have to get more general acceptance.   However, I anticipate a fairly lengthy wait unless the other two vaccines awaiting approval appear.

I'm hoping for the Oxford one but it's interesting that they're researching into whether different vaccines might complement each other and a combination prove more effective than one alone. By the time they get to most of us they might have more idea. 

The Oxford vaccine was a two jab inoculation, in error, one of the jabs only contained half the vaccine. So they found by mistake that the one and a half jabs worked better then the two jabs. Because this didn't fit the profile of the trial which was based on two full jabs, they are having to look at others ways of moving ahead with their vaccine. 

That's the gist, it's a bit more complex than that.

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 07:16:26 PM

Quote from: rebel on December 14, 2020, 07:09:31 PM

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 03:50:59 PM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 14, 2020, 03:38:07 PM
Well done, Dodgin.

According to my family GPs there are a lot of reasons why people are not taking up the offer of the vaccine which include fear of exposure to the virus travelling to and from or at the site where the vaccination and recovery (approx. 20mins) is performed.  Since there are two such visits to be made there is a perceived double risk and it should be remembered that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does not offer immunity to the virus but does reduce the chances of serious symptoms if infected.  Full protection from bad infections is stated to be achieved a week after the second jab.   

The lack of take up may be why some health workers are getting ahead of the pecking order because a batch, once opened, has to be used up quickly.   

If an early chance was offered to me I would take it since, one way or another, it'll prove something, which is what all vaccines need to have to get more general acceptance.   However, I anticipate a fairly lengthy wait unless the other two vaccines awaiting approval appear.

I'm hoping for the Oxford one but it's interesting that they're researching into whether different vaccines might complement each other and a combination prove more effective than one alone. By the time they get to most of us they might have more idea. 

The Oxford vaccine was a two jab inoculation, in error, one of the jabs only contained half the vaccine. So they found by mistake that the one and a half jabs worked better then the two jabs. Because this didn't fit the profile of the trial which was based on two full jabs, they are having to look at others ways of moving ahead with their vaccine. 

That's the gist, it's a bit more complex than that.

I didn't want to give you 'War and Peace' on it.

Quote from: rebel on December 14, 2020, 07:46:44 PM

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 07:16:26 PM

Quote from: rebel on December 14, 2020, 07:09:31 PM

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 03:50:59 PM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 14, 2020, 03:38:07 PM
Well done, Dodgin.

According to my family GPs there are a lot of reasons why people are not taking up the offer of the vaccine which include fear of exposure to the virus travelling to and from or at the site where the vaccination and recovery (approx. 20mins) is performed.  Since there are two such visits to be made there is a perceived double risk and it should be remembered that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does not offer immunity to the virus but does reduce the chances of serious symptoms if infected.  Full protection from bad infections is stated to be achieved a week after the second jab.   

The lack of take up may be why some health workers are getting ahead of the pecking order because a batch, once opened, has to be used up quickly.   

If an early chance was offered to me I would take it since, one way or another, it'll prove something, which is what all vaccines need to have to get more general acceptance.   However, I anticipate a fairly lengthy wait unless the other two vaccines awaiting approval appear.

I'm hoping for the Oxford one but it's interesting that they're researching into whether different vaccines might complement each other and a combination prove more effective than one alone. By the time they get to most of us they might have more idea. 

The Oxford vaccine was a two jab inoculation, in error, one of the jabs only contained half the vaccine. So they found by mistake that the one and a half jabs worked better then the two jabs. Because this didn't fit the profile of the trial which was based on two full jabs, they are having to look at others ways of moving ahead with their vaccine. 

That's the gist, it's a bit more complex than that.

I didn't want to give you 'War and Peace' on it.

Lot of jibber jabber in there, agreed.

I believe I'm due to have mine on 21st Dec.

Quote from: Milo on December 14, 2020, 08:02:33 PM
I believe I'm due to have mine on 21st Dec.

Good luck.

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 10:11:29 AM

Quote from: Sgt Fulham on December 14, 2020, 10:08:16 AM
Good man. I know its important to keep politics off this board but as someone who works in the Pharmaceutical industry, namely for one of those involved in the vaccine project I am glad you're taking the sensible option. I hope you make it to a game soon.

Common sense shouldn't be political!

0001.jpeg

Quote from: Milo on December 14, 2020, 08:02:33 PM
I believe I'm due to have mine on 21st Dec.

That would be my birthday present.

Quote from: rebel on December 14, 2020, 11:03:57 AM

Quote from: blingo on December 14, 2020, 10:45:20 AM
Blingo still wont be taking it. Sorry but I don't trust any of the vaccines at the moment.

Ask the nurse if you can have it on the bottom, if you think it's going to hurt you, 'Carry On' fashion.

I inject twice a day so hardly think Im scared of the jab hahaha

Quote from: rebel on December 14, 2020, 07:09:31 PM
The Oxford vaccine was a two jab inoculation, in error, one of the jabs only contained half the vaccine. So they found by mistake that the one and a half jabs worked better then the two jabs. Because this didn't fit the profile of the trial which was based on two full jabs, they are having to look at others ways of moving ahead with their vaccine. 

The Oxford double dose vaccine does however offer 'improved immunity' at some stage which is not true of the Pfizer/BioNTech double dose at any stage.  We are also seeing much greater interest as to why children's naive T-cells seem to bat the infection away with zero symptoms which may be mitigated by many already known other reasons, e.g. shallower, more frequent, breathing due to lower lung capacity, but is also a reason why they do not normally pass the infection on to others because viral load would be very low.   

In Iceland their supremely effective public health track and trace has very detailed maps of infection which also gives clues as to the paths of infection.   If only other nations had such disciplined public health we would know much more about this virus. 

Quote from: HV71 on December 14, 2020, 12:36:23 PM

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 11:16:31 AM

Quote from: Twig on December 14, 2020, 11:14:30 AM
My wife and I are in category 5 and can't wait to get it. It's not just important for our protection, we both also see it as a social responsibility.

THIS.

So right~ it is the responsible thing to do. I am certainly no fan of this government - but they have thrown money at the problem and as citizens we should play our part in trying to keep this virus at bay.

The Government could of saved the 'manic state of affairs' had it simply told people in mid to late January to wear masks and social distance, thousands of lives would have been saved (even if the virus hadn't appeared in the UK). Prevention is always much better then cure.     

Some health workers (like my sister- working in Operating Theatre of major hospital in SW London) have today been told that they cannot be innocculated immediately and given no reason as to why.
There are plenty of reasons why this may have happened, but I hope it's not already dwindling availability of the vaccine.

Quote from: toshes mate on December 15, 2020, 09:17:23 AM

Quote from: rebel on December 14, 2020, 07:09:31 PM
The Oxford vaccine was a two jab inoculation, in error, one of the jabs only contained half the vaccine. So they found by mistake that the one and a half jabs worked better then the two jabs. Because this didn't fit the profile of the trial which was based on two full jabs, they are having to look at others ways of moving ahead with their vaccine. 

The Oxford double dose vaccine does however offer 'improved immunity' at some stage which is not true of the Pfizer/BioNTech double dose at any stage.  We are also seeing much greater interest as to why children's naive T-cells seem to bat the infection away with zero symptoms which may be mitigated by many already known other reasons, e.g. shallower, more frequent, breathing due to lower lung capacity, but is also a reason why they do not normally pass the infection on to others because viral load would be very low.   

In Iceland their supremely effective public health track and trace has very detailed maps of infection which also gives clues as to the paths of infection.   If only other nations had such disciplined public health we would know much more about this virus.

Iceland have a population of 364,00 not dissimilar to that of the city of Cardiff. It's a significantly easier task to control a virus with those numbers. Quite simply not comparable to other nations with population numbers in the high millions.

Quote from: Whitestone on December 15, 2020, 09:35:22 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 15, 2020, 09:17:23 AM

Quote from: rebel on December 14, 2020, 07:09:31 PM
The Oxford vaccine was a two jab inoculation, in error, one of the jabs only contained half the vaccine. So they found by mistake that the one and a half jabs worked better then the two jabs. Because this didn't fit the profile of the trial which was based on two full jabs, they are having to look at others ways of moving ahead with their vaccine. 

The Oxford double dose vaccine does however offer 'improved immunity' at some stage which is not true of the Pfizer/BioNTech double dose at any stage.  We are also seeing much greater interest as to why children's naive T-cells seem to bat the infection away with zero symptoms which may be mitigated by many already known other reasons, e.g. shallower, more frequent, breathing due to lower lung capacity, but is also a reason why they do not normally pass the infection on to others because viral load would be very low.   

In Iceland their supremely effective public health track and trace has very detailed maps of infection which also gives clues as to the paths of infection.   If only other nations had such disciplined public health we would know much more about this virus.

Iceland have a population of 364,00 not dissimilar to that of the city of Cardiff. It's a significantly easier task to control a virus with those numbers. Quite simply not comparable to other nations with population numbers in the high millions.

Regardless of population size the virus will eventually run out of hosts.  Experts say that it is more likely that any mutations of SARS-CoV-2 will likely be more benign than the original rather than more pernicious since that has been true of all coronaviruses that linger in the human population from colds to 'flu.  Most seasonal 'flu deaths are within the elderly population which is why 'flu jabs are offered since infection is always possible no matter how a population behaves. 

Quote from: rebel on December 15, 2020, 09:30:19 AM

Quote from: HV71 on December 14, 2020, 12:36:23 PM

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 11:16:31 AM

Quote from: Twig on December 14, 2020, 11:14:30 AM
My wife and I are in category 5 and can't wait to get it. It's not just important for our protection, we both also see it as a social responsibility.

THIS.

So right~ it is the responsible thing to do. I am certainly no fan of this government - but they have thrown money at the problem and as citizens we should play our part in trying to keep this virus at bay.

The Government could of saved the 'manic state of affairs' had it simply told people in mid to late January to wear masks and social distance, thousands of lives would have been saved (even if the virus hadn't appeared in the UK). Prevention is always much better then cure.     

Sensible, yes, but in the government's defence I suspect that the shortage of masks even for front-line NHS staff may well have been a factor in the absence of that advice, even setting aside an arguable lack of perception of the seriousness. Besides, mask-wearing hasn't been normal in the West and only really became the unselfconscious norm for most people in late spring. I was in Salzburg last December, before the virus became rife, and there were literally thousands of Chinese tourists there all wearing masks. Even visiting north Exmoor in June, an oriental family was wearing masks in the open countryside on a hot day. They've become accustomed to it whereas we hadn't before now and there was a societal resistance to it initially.

But let's not rewrite the past. In mid-March it wasn't just us, but Germany and all our other peers, who weren't closing borders, weren't mandating masks, weren't even contemplating a lockdown etc. All the talk then was just about letting the virus run it's course like a bad flu season. IIRC it only really kicked off when the Imperial College modelling came out showing the proportion of people that were going unto ICU and how that would overwhelm hospitals. Easy to say now we should have done this or that sooner but we didn't know then what we know now. Even in relation to masks the scientific advice was inconsistent.

Also IMO there's a chance that in further time, once the deaths stop and the economic damage sets in, the pendulum will swing the other way and people will start saying we should never have done any of the things we've done in the last 9 months, we should have just carried on as normal and taken it on the chin in March.

Quote from: rebel on December 15, 2020, 09:30:19 AM

Quote from: HV71 on December 14, 2020, 12:36:23 PM

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 11:16:31 AM

Quote from: Twig on December 14, 2020, 11:14:30 AM
My wife and I are in category 5 and can't wait to get it. It's not just important for our protection, we both also see it as a social responsibility.

THIS.

So right~ it is the responsible thing to do. I am certainly no fan of this government - but they have thrown money at the problem and as citizens we should play our part in trying to keep this virus at bay.

The Government could of saved the 'manic state of affairs' had it simply told people in mid to late January to wear masks and social distance, thousands of lives would have been saved (even if the virus hadn't appeared in the UK). Prevention is always much better then cure.     

That's true, but people have been told to wear masks and social distance and choose to ignore it.
Only 2/3 weeks ago a few thousand people arrived in London for an anti-mask demonstration, why in gods name would people do that, if someone is not going to wear a mask that's their choice, but why have demonstration.

The whole point of having embassies all around the world i.e. in China is that they monitor what's going on in that country. The British Embassy in China would have been well aware of 'Wuhan' and the situation there, the fact that reports were getting out into the media was like 'white smoke', a big signal that something was wrong. Normally the Chinese government are good at stopping 'bad news'. In late December early January cruise ships were stationary at docks because of the virus. So it was kind of obvious the virus was spreading. 

At that point face coverings / masks etc could have been ready for demand. If people then took the preventative measures the hospitals wouldn't have been inundated etc, etc. The Government would have been in control, instead of having to chase the virus.   

Quote from: alfie on December 15, 2020, 11:42:13 AM

Quote from: rebel on December 15, 2020, 09:30:19 AM

Quote from: HV71 on December 14, 2020, 12:36:23 PM

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 11:16:31 AM

Quote from: Twig on December 14, 2020, 11:14:30 AM
My wife and I are in category 5 and can't wait to get it. It's not just important for our protection, we both also see it as a social responsibility.

THIS.

So right~ it is the responsible thing to do. I am certainly no fan of this government - but they have thrown money at the problem and as citizens we should play our part in trying to keep this virus at bay.

The Government could of saved the 'manic state of affairs' had it simply told people in mid to late January to wear masks and social distance, thousands of lives would have been saved (even if the virus hadn't appeared in the UK). Prevention is always much better then cure.     

That's true, but people have been told to wear masks and social distance and choose to ignore it.
Only 2/3 weeks ago a few thousand people arrived in London for an anti-mask demonstration, why in gods name would people do that, if someone is not going to wear a mask that's their choice, but why have demonstration.

It's all to do with mixed messages, you've got the Health Secretary, talking about preventative measures i.e. wearing masks, etc. then in the same interview, talking vaccines, vaccines, 'the end is near' etc. All the 'gobbledygook' about this Tier, that Tier etc, is confusing for people. 

Quote from: Statto on December 14, 2020, 09:27:45 PM

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 10:11:29 AM

Quote from: Sgt Fulham on December 14, 2020, 10:08:16 AM
Good man. I know its important to keep politics off this board but as someone who works in the Pharmaceutical industry, namely for one of those involved in the vaccine project I am glad you're taking the sensible option. I hope you make it to a game soon.

Common sense shouldn't be political!

0001.jpeg

I agree. Unfortunately these days we have to pander to the most offended populations regardless of their merit or the merit of their ideas. There is a lot of misinformation out there and while everyone has the right to what they put in their body, anyone with a scientific background will look at the evidence and conclude that you're (on average) a lot safer taking the vaccine than not. To me, choosing not to take the vaccine is like betting on Peterborough beating Man City. Possible  but extremely unlikely. My advice to those that are on the fence is to talk to people that are science literate and understand basic statistics and go with the probabilities.

Also as very well said elsewhere, not everyone can take the vaccine. Please bear in mind these people when making a decision.

As soon as you are given the opportunity get along to the center and get the jab, it is for all our benefits.

Difficult for us older people to understand why anyone is hesitating, perhaps it should be compulsory. When enlisted for national service we were all given a number of jabs, at the same time in the same arm. We just had to get in a long line and take the old blunt needle one after the other. No debate or choice simple routine.
Further jabs were then administered before an overseas posting.

SAGE was aware in mid-January:

"In the middle of January Prof Andrew Pollard, the director of the Oxford Vaccine Group, which runs clinical trials, shared a taxi with a modeller who worked for the UK government's Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies. During the journey, the scientist told him data suggested there was going to be a pandemic not unlike the 1918 flu.

"I went from someone who was aware of a small outbreak in China, which was of academic interest, to realising that it was going to change our lives. It was a chilling moment," Pollard says."

Quote from: Holders on December 15, 2020, 12:28:14 PM
SAGE was aware in mid-January:

"In the middle of January Prof Andrew Pollard, the director of the Oxford Vaccine Group, which runs clinical trials, shared a taxi with a modeller who worked for the UK government's Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies. During the journey, the scientist told him data suggested there was going to be a pandemic not unlike the 1918 flu.

"I went from someone who was aware of a small outbreak in China, which was of academic interest, to realising that it was going to change our lives. It was a chilling moment," Pollard says."

Exactly, it was known about, a lot of people knew about it. I was aware of it in mid December.

The headline is misleading, it's a two jab process -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55332242

Quote from: rebel on December 15, 2020, 09:30:19 AM

Quote from: HV71 on December 14, 2020, 12:36:23 PM

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 11:16:31 AM

Quote from: Twig on December 14, 2020, 11:14:30 AM
My wife and I are in category 5 and can't wait to get it. It's not just important for our protection, we both also see it as a social responsibility.

THIS.

So right~ it is the responsible thing to do. I am certainly no fan of this government - but they have thrown money at the problem and as citizens we should play our part in trying to keep this virus at bay.

The Government could of saved the 'manic state of affairs' had it simply told people in mid to late January to wear masks and social distance, thousands of lives would have been saved (even if the virus hadn't appeared in the UK). Prevention is always much better then cure.     

It's not like me to defend this government but to be fair the WHO advice did not favour masks back in January.

Quote from: rebel on December 15, 2020, 11:48:40 AM

Quote from: alfie on December 15, 2020, 11:42:13 AM

Quote from: rebel on December 15, 2020, 09:30:19 AM

Quote from: HV71 on December 14, 2020, 12:36:23 PM

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 11:16:31 AM

Quote from: Twig on December 14, 2020, 11:14:30 AM
My wife and I are in category 5 and can't wait to get it. It's not just important for our protection, we both also see it as a social responsibility.

THIS.

So right~ it is the responsible thing to do. I am certainly no fan of this government - but they have thrown money at the problem and as citizens we should play our part in trying to keep this virus at bay.

The Government could of saved the 'manic state of affairs' had it simply told people in mid to late January to wear masks and social distance, thousands of lives would have been saved (even if the virus hadn't appeared in the UK). Prevention is always much better then cure.     

That's true, but people have been told to wear masks and social distance and choose to ignore it.
Only 2/3 weeks ago a few thousand people arrived in London for an anti-mask demonstration, why in gods name would people do that, if someone is not going to wear a mask that's their choice, but why have demonstration.

It's all to do with mixed messages, you've got the Health Secretary, talking about preventative measures i.e. wearing masks, etc. then in the same interview, talking vaccines, vaccines, 'the end is near' etc. All the 'gobbledygook' about this Tier, that Tier etc, is confusing for people. 

I don't think that several thousand idiots coming to demonstrate in London has anything to do with mixed messaging. These people are just bone heads.

That said I agree that the government's messaging and some of the pre entative measures have been confusing and have at times appeared contradictory.

So, tell me how are we notified that a jab is ready for us, email, letter or phone call and by whom.

Quote from: Twig on December 16, 2020, 01:36:38 PM

Quote from: rebel on December 15, 2020, 09:30:19 AM

Quote from: HV71 on December 14, 2020, 12:36:23 PM

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 11:16:31 AM

Quote from: Twig on December 14, 2020, 11:14:30 AM
My wife and I are in category 5 and can't wait to get it. It's not just important for our protection, we both also see it as a social responsibility.

THIS.

So right~ it is the responsible thing to do. I am certainly no fan of this government - but they have thrown money at the problem and as citizens we should play our part in trying to keep this virus at bay.

The Government could of saved the 'manic state of affairs' had it simply told people in mid to late January to wear masks and social distance, thousands of lives would have been saved (even if the virus hadn't appeared in the UK). Prevention is always much better then cure.     

It's not like me to defend this government but to be fair the WHO advice did not favour masks back in January.

China tried to 'save face', gave the WHO (totally inept) the run around so the 'mystery virus' couldn't be investigated. So what advice WHO gives is reactionary and not preventative, it's all scientist based, not practical measures that were so easy to implement with Rules for non compliance. 

Quote from: filham on December 16, 2020, 03:54:33 PM
So, tell me how are we notified that a jab is ready for us, email, letter or phone call and by whom.

It depends what details your GP holds, might be all three.

Quote from: Twig on December 16, 2020, 01:40:22 PM

Quote from: rebel on December 15, 2020, 11:48:40 AM

Quote from: alfie on December 15, 2020, 11:42:13 AM

Quote from: rebel on December 15, 2020, 09:30:19 AM

Quote from: HV71 on December 14, 2020, 12:36:23 PM

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 11:16:31 AM

Quote from: Twig on December 14, 2020, 11:14:30 AM
My wife and I are in category 5 and can't wait to get it. It's not just important for our protection, we both also see it as a social responsibility.

THIS.

So right~ it is the responsible thing to do. I am certainly no fan of this government - but they have thrown money at the problem and as citizens we should play our part in trying to keep this virus at bay.

The Government could of saved the 'manic state of affairs' had it simply told people in mid to late January to wear masks and social distance, thousands of lives would have been saved (even if the virus hadn't appeared in the UK). Prevention is always much better then cure.     

That's true, but people have been told to wear masks and social distance and choose to ignore it.
Only 2/3 weeks ago a few thousand people arrived in London for an anti-mask demonstration, why in gods name would people do that, if someone is not going to wear a mask that's their choice, but why have demonstration.

It's all to do with mixed messages, you've got the Health Secretary, talking about preventative measures i.e. wearing masks, etc. then in the same interview, talking vaccines, vaccines, 'the end is near' etc. All the 'gobbledygook' about this Tier, that Tier etc, is confusing for people. 

I don't think that several thousand idiots coming to demonstrate in London has anything to do with mixed messaging. These people are just bone heads.

That said I agree that the government's messaging and some of the pre entative measures have been confusing and have at times appeared contradictory.

Mix messages give opportunity for malcontents to behave against norms.

Quote from: Twig on December 16, 2020, 01:36:38 PM

Quote from: rebel on December 15, 2020, 09:30:19 AM

Quote from: HV71 on December 14, 2020, 12:36:23 PM

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 11:16:31 AM

Quote from: Twig on December 14, 2020, 11:14:30 AM
My wife and I are in category 5 and can't wait to get it. It's not just important for our protection, we both also see it as a social responsibility.

THIS.

So right~ it is the responsible thing to do. I am certainly no fan of this government - but they have thrown money at the problem and as citizens we should play our part in trying to keep this virus at bay.

The Government could of saved the 'manic state of affairs' had it simply told people in mid to late January to wear masks and social distance, thousands of lives would have been saved (even if the virus hadn't appeared in the UK). Prevention is always much better then cure.     

It's not like me to defend this government but to be fair the WHO advice did not favour masks back in January.

To be fair to the WHO in mid-January they supposedly did not believe the virus could spread from human to human:

Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China🇨🇳. pic.twitter.com/Fnl5P877VG

— World Health Organization (WHO) (@WHO) January 14, 2020

Quote from: Twig on December 14, 2020, 11:14:30 AM
My wife and I are in category 5 and can't wait to get it. It's not just important for our protection, we both also see it as a social responsibility.

eggbloodyzactly

for once we must not look at things personally/selfishly  and what we think is best for us

we are part of a society and we must do what is best for society and ignore our own needs

think about the vulnerable and do your bit

Just had my firstb one at Nonsuch Manor, return for my second on 6th Jan. Haven't grown any green hair yet.

Quote from: Peabody on December 16, 2020, 06:44:44 PM
Just had my firstb one at Nonsuch Manor, return for my second on 6th Jan. Haven't grown any green hair yet.

Good for you my Mum is 88 and she can't wait to have it so she can live the rest of her life with some normality.

Quick question to anybody say over 70 who doesn't want to have the Vaccine.Are you going to take a risk and go out when the restrictions diminish or wait until enough people have taken the Vaccine before going out?Or something else?

Quote from: Peabody on December 16, 2020, 06:44:44 PM
Just had my firstb one at Nonsuch Manor, return for my second on 6th Jan. Haven't grown any green hair yet.

Never mind green, how about black and white?

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 16, 2020, 07:05:04 PM
Quick question to anybody say over 70 who doesn't want to have the Vaccine.Are you going to take a risk and go out when the restrictions diminish or wait until enough people have taken the Vaccine before going out?Or something else?

Would that matter though?

If you get the vaccine, does it inhibit you from spreading the virus, even if you are immune to it?

What I mean is: Doesn't the vaccine simply protect YOU should the virus get into your system, or does it kill it immediately, considering one can be infectious prior to symptoms appearing?

One of my flat mates had the first jab yesterday, she's only a young lady around 30 I think, but she works in n old people's care home.

Until a few weeks ago she was pretty into her conspiracy theory thing, and swore she would not take it, but good to know that when she was offered it she did take it, and she seems fine and is happy she did.

Poor lass is from Spain and hasn't been able to go home all year (she normally does a few times), so fair play to her and the thousands like her who came to the UK looking for a better life and got stuck in these circumstances.

I had Covid19 at the end October, good ness know how I caught it as I work from home, don't car share, don't mix in people houses, wear face mask, hand sanitiser and social distance. I think I got a mild dose as wasn't too bad with it. But catching it considering all of the above brought it home how infectious it is.

I presume I'm pretty much down the queue to get a vaccine jab but I definitely have one if offered

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Not sure those who don't want it, me for example, will ultimately have a choice, I work in close contact services so will probably have to have it to continue to trade, my partner is Hungarian so if we want to drive to Hungary to see her family we'll probably have to have to have it to travel.

It's interesting to me, someone who spends a lot of time with NHS nurses, how many are dismissive of the virus and equally the need to have a rushed vaccine.

Something is off with the vaccine, if it takes 10 years plus to test a vaccine either this one is extremely under tested and therefore not to be trusted or pharma companies have taken extortionate research and development fees for decades and producing a vaccine this quickly was always possible.

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk

Quote from: Tempest on December 17, 2020, 08:40:37 AM
Not sure those who don't want it, me for example, will ultimately have a choice, I work in close contact services so will probably have to have it to continue to trade, my partner is Hungarian so if we want to drive to Hungary to see her family we'll probably have to have to have it to travel.

It's interesting to me, someone who spends a lot of time with NHS nurses, how many are dismissive of the virus and equally the need to have a rushed vaccine.

Something is off with the vaccine, if it takes 10 years plus to test a vaccine either this one is extremely under tested and therefore not to be trusted or pharma companies have taken extortionate research and development fees for decades and producing a vaccine this quickly was always possible.

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk

I don't see how any restrictions can be applied to people who haven't had the vaccine, when it isn't 100% effective. Lots of people will have had the vaccine but not be immune, and lots of people who have not had the vaccine will be immune by virtue of having previously caught the virus. So it doesn't make much sense.

But as to the speed with which it's been produced, surely it's common sense that almost everything in life can be sped up when more resource is thrown at it. No doubt the Riverside stand could be built in a tenth of the time of you had an army of tens of thousand working on it.

It is worth repeating that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does nothing to protect other people from infection by you if you catch Covid-19 and are asymptomatic by virtue of the vaccine.  Crazy but true.

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 16, 2020, 04:52:40 PM

Quote from: Twig on December 16, 2020, 01:36:38 PM

Quote from: rebel on December 15, 2020, 09:30:19 AM

Quote from: HV71 on December 14, 2020, 12:36:23 PM

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 11:16:31 AM

Quote from: Twig on December 14, 2020, 11:14:30 AM
My wife and I are in category 5 and can't wait to get it. It's not just important for our protection, we both also see it as a social responsibility.

THIS.

So right~ it is the responsible thing to do. I am certainly no fan of this government - but they have thrown money at the problem and as citizens we should play our part in trying to keep this virus at bay.

The Government could of saved the 'manic state of affairs' had it simply told people in mid to late January to wear masks and social distance, thousands of lives would have been saved (even if the virus hadn't appeared in the UK). Prevention is always much better then cure.     

It's not like me to defend this government but to be fair the WHO advice did not favour masks back in January.

To be fair to the WHO in mid-January they supposedly did not believe the virus could spread from human to human:

Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China🇨🇳. pic.twitter.com/Fnl5P877VG

— World Health Organization (WHO) (@WHO) January 14, 2020

The WHO are sending a team of investigators to China to investigate the origin of the virus. This should of been mid December last year.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/16/who-research-team-expected-to-travel-to-wuhan-to-investigate-coronavirus-origin

Quote from: Logicalman on December 16, 2020, 08:28:31 PM

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 16, 2020, 07:05:04 PM
Quick question to anybody say over 70 who doesn't want to have the Vaccine.Are you going to take a risk and go out when the restrictions diminish or wait until enough people have taken the Vaccine before going out?Or something else?

Would that matter though?

If you get the vaccine, does it inhibit you from spreading the virus, even if you are immune to it?

What I mean is: Doesn't the vaccine simply protect YOU should the virus get into your system, or does it kill it immediately, considering one can be infectious prior to symptoms appearing?

I thought it was a pretty simple Question to the over70's on this board who decide not to take the vaccine when offered.There were some but can't find the original thread.

Quote from: rebel on December 17, 2020, 09:39:32 AM
The WHO are sending a team of investigators to China to investigate the origin of the virus. This should of been mid December last year.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/16/who-research-team-expected-to-travel-to-wuhan-to-investigate-coronavirus-origin

It looks and sounds like hindsight is a wonderful thing but had it been done what do you think may have changed from what has happened?  There are some earlier references of possible events of Covid-19, in North Carolina and France for example, but much testing is not very accurate even now with all we have found out about the efficacy of PCR and lateral flow test and the knowledge they all need clinical investigation alongside the test in order to make informed judgements.   The outbreak happened when it did and the WHO behaved as it has been politically designed to behave.

The WHO have a mountain of things to answer for. This could all have been nipped in the bud if the WHO and Chinese had locked down Wuhan, not let anyone in or out and stopped all international travel.
There is no way I am going to take any injection whilst there is no proof on long term effects.
Lets be realistic, 99.7% of people survive this without any further problems.
If you have already had it, what the hell do you need immunising against.
There are more questions than answers in all of this.
If you isolate the elderly and the vulnerable you eradicate 99% of the problem, which is what should have been done from day one.
Masks....They have done bugger all in Spain to stop the spread. To be effective at all, people have to use them properly. The majority of people in Spain (me included) wear one so as not to get a 600 euro fine, so the same mask is used for days if not weeks.
Herd immunity is the ONLY solution here. What is covid 19 today will mutate tomorrow, how many jabs are we going to need?????

Blingo wont be taking any jab without a track record. How can this new form of innoculation be 90 or 95% effective when EVERY OTHER type of flu jab has never been more than 60% max effective but normally 40-50%? Im nowhere near convinced about any of this, and if i cant fly quantas well they can stick their airline where the sun dont shine. By the way 55% of people in spain are saying they wont be taking the Jab.

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 10:02:01 AM

Quote from: rebel on December 17, 2020, 09:39:32 AM
The WHO are sending a team of investigators to China to investigate the origin of the virus. This should of been mid December last year.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/16/who-research-team-expected-to-travel-to-wuhan-to-investigate-coronavirus-origin

It looks and sounds like hindsight is a wonderful thing but had it been done what do you think may have changed from what has happened?  There are some earlier references of possible events of Covid-19, in North Carolina and France for example, but much testing is not very accurate even now with all we have found out about the efficacy of PCR and lateral flow test and the knowledge they all need clinical investigation alongside the test in order to make informed judgements.   The outbreak happened when it did and the WHO behaved as it has been politically designed to behave.

Thousands of lives would have been saved worldwide, that is the whole point of the WHO existing. If they issued a global warning and advised on everybody wearing masks and some social distancing, then many, many lives would have been saved. As for North Carolina and France, I think we've been there before. China has been busy blaming other countries.     

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 10:06:19 AM
The WHO have a mountain of things to answer for. This could all have been nipped in the bud if the WHO and Chinese had locked down Wuhan, not let anyone in or out and stopped all international travel.
There is no way I am going to take any injection whilst there is no proof on long term effects.
Lets be realistic, 99.7% of people survive this without any further problems.
If you have already had it, what the hell do you need immunising against.
There are more questions than answers in all of this.
If you isolate the elderly and the vulnerable you eradicate 99% of the problem, which is what should have been done from day one.
Masks....They have done bugger all in Spain to stop the spread. To be effective at all, people have to use them properly. The majority of people in Spain (me included) wear one so as not to get a 600 euro fine, so the same mask is used for days if not weeks.
Herd immunity is the ONLY solution here. What is covid 19 today will mutate tomorrow, how many jabs are we going to need?????

Blingo wont be taking any jab without a track record. How can this new form of innoculation be 90 or 95% effective when EVERY OTHER type of flu jab has never been more than 60% max effective but normally 40-50%? Im nowhere near convinced about any of this, and if i cant fly quantas well they can stick their airline where the sun dont shine. By the way 55% of people in spain are saying they wont be taking the Jab.

Exactly, the WHO carry's a lot of responsibility for the way this unfolded, China was stonewalling the WHO, the WHO could of sought help from all sorts of other agency's. 

Quote from: rebel on December 17, 2020, 10:13:38 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 10:02:01 AM

Quote from: rebel on December 17, 2020, 09:39:32 AM
The WHO are sending a team of investigators to China to investigate the origin of the virus. This should of been mid December last year.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/16/who-research-team-expected-to-travel-to-wuhan-to-investigate-coronavirus-origin

It looks and sounds like hindsight is a wonderful thing but had it been done what do you think may have changed from what has happened?  There are some earlier references of possible events of Covid-19, in North Carolina and France for example, but much testing is not very accurate even now with all we have found out about the efficacy of PCR and lateral flow test and the knowledge they all need clinical investigation alongside the test in order to make informed judgements.   The outbreak happened when it did and the WHO behaved as it has been politically designed to behave.

Thousands of lives would have been saved worldwide, that is the whole point of the WHO existing. If they issued a global warning and advised on everybody wearing masks and some social distancing, then many, many lives would have been saved. As for North Carolina and France, I think we've been there before. China has been busy blaming other countries.     

I am sorry to say, rebel, that you cannot claim thousands of lives would have been saved.  Seasonal 'flu around the world takes out hundreds of thousands of elderly people every year and has done for decades.   As blingo says above herd immunity stands between us and any virus and vaccines help to prevent the deaths spreading too far outside the group of people who will always become more vulnerable to them as they get older.   The world population is growing but the proportion of deaths remains pretty constant and even 2020 will not be particularly different if you are pragmatic and read the facts carefully (i.e. ignore MSM propaganda and read the science that you have to look for yourself because you won't find it pushed by the mainstream).

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 10:28:56 AM

Quote from: rebel on December 17, 2020, 10:13:38 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 10:02:01 AM

Quote from: rebel on December 17, 2020, 09:39:32 AM
The WHO are sending a team of investigators to China to investigate the origin of the virus. This should of been mid December last year.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/16/who-research-team-expected-to-travel-to-wuhan-to-investigate-coronavirus-origin

It looks and sounds like hindsight is a wonderful thing but had it been done what do you think may have changed from what has happened?  There are some earlier references of possible events of Covid-19, in North Carolina and France for example, but much testing is not very accurate even now with all we have found out about the efficacy of PCR and lateral flow test and the knowledge they all need clinical investigation alongside the test in order to make informed judgements.   The outbreak happened when it did and the WHO behaved as it has been politically designed to behave.

Thousands of lives would have been saved worldwide, that is the whole point of the WHO existing. If they issued a global warning and advised on everybody wearing masks and some social distancing, then many, many lives would have been saved. As for North Carolina and France, I think we've been there before. China has been busy blaming other countries.     

I am sorry to say, rebel, that you cannot claim thousands of lives would have been saved.  Seasonal 'flu around the world takes out hundreds of thousands of elderly people every year and has done for decades.   As blingo says above herd immunity stands between us and any virus and vaccines help to prevent the deaths spreading too far outside the group of people who will always become more vulnerable to them as they get older.   The world population is growing but the proportion of deaths remains pretty constant and even 2020 will not be particularly different if you are pragmatic and read the facts carefully (i.e. ignore MSM propaganda and read the science that you have to look for yourself because you won't find it pushed by the mainstream).

I am saying exactly that, thousands of lives would have been saved. Various studies has shown that had the initial Lockdown in the UK happened weeks earlier, then 'X' number of lives could have been saved. I'm not talking about seasonal flu, that's a totally different thing.

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 09:19:40 AM
It is worth repeating that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does nothing to protect other people from infection by you if you catch Covid-19 and are asymptomatic by virtue of the vaccine.  Crazy but true.

I understood that it has yet to be determined whether or not the vacine would prevent re transmission by carriers but that there is hope that it will.

Quote from: filham on December 17, 2020, 10:46:15 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 09:19:40 AM
It is worth repeating that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does nothing to protect other people from infection by you if you catch Covid-19 and are asymptomatic by virtue of the vaccine.  Crazy but true.

I understood that it has yet to be determined whether or not the vacine would prevent re transmission by carriers but that there is hope that it will.

The vaccine isn't designed to give immunity but there is always a chance with much more rigorous test and track regime studies we will find out who infects who.  That is what the the Icelandic process referred to above is designed to achieve and how they know some valuable stuff (to everybody) about the virus.  There will be more of this stuff as testing standards improve and the other vaccines come on stream.

Quote from: filham on December 17, 2020, 10:46:15 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 09:19:40 AM
It is worth repeating that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does nothing to protect other people from infection by you if you catch Covid-19 and are asymptomatic by virtue of the vaccine.  Crazy but true.

I understood that it has yet to be determined whether or not the vacine would prevent re transmission by carriers but that there is hope that it will.

that was my understanding also

Quote from: Statto on December 17, 2020, 11:23:07 AM

Quote from: filham on December 17, 2020, 10:46:15 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 09:19:40 AM
It is worth repeating that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does nothing to protect other people from infection by you if you catch Covid-19 and are asymptomatic by virtue of the vaccine.  Crazy but true.

I understood that it has yet to be determined whether or not the vacine would prevent re transmission by carriers but that there is hope that it will.

that was my understanding also

So immunisation jab on something they cant say wont necessarily stop re-transmission? Have we all been brainwashed that badly?

First they have produced vaccines in record time, secondly, the vaccines produced, reportedly, are twice as effective as any brought out before. The more I look at it, the less chance I will take it. For the record I'm 64 Diabetic and have High blood pressure.

The next thing they will try to convince me of is that if my aunty had a pair or nuts, she'd be my uncle. UNBELIEVABLE

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 12:11:37 PM

Quote from: Statto on December 17, 2020, 11:23:07 AM

Quote from: filham on December 17, 2020, 10:46:15 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 09:19:40 AM
It is worth repeating that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does nothing to protect other people from infection by you if you catch Covid-19 and are asymptomatic by virtue of the vaccine.  Crazy but true.

I understood that it has yet to be determined whether or not the vacine would prevent re transmission by carriers but that there is hope that it will.

that was my understanding also

So immunisation jab on something they cant say wont necessarily stop re-transmission? Have we all been brainwashed that badly?

First they have produced vaccines in record time, secondly, the vaccines produced, reportedly, are twice as effective as any brought out before. The more I look at it, the less chance I will take it. For the record I'm 64 Diabetic and have High blood pressure.

The next thing they will try to convince me of is that if my aunty had a pair or nuts, she'd be my uncle. UNBELIEVABLE

ok Blingo ,what do you intend doing if you don't take the vaccine and the pubs and football grounds restaurants etc go back to some normality.Stay indoors?

Here is my best effort at explaining the problem of immunity and the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine.  The first paragraph is how it works.

The spike protein in SARS-CoV-2  is recognised as foreign by the immune system, which mounts an attack against it. Antibodies, B-cells and T-cells are activated.  An immune memory is also laid down, which means the immune system has learned how to defeat the pathogen and is primed to mount a swift response if it encounters the coronavirus again.  The mRNA vaccine produces this effect in the person receiving it.

Take three people A, B and C.
 
A is infected with SARS-CoV-2.  A's healthy immune system naturally recognises the spike protein from a previous coronavirus attack (including a prior SARS-CoV-2 attack) and mounts a swift response which eliminates symptoms and allows him to continue as normal not knowing if they are infectious or not.

B is vaccinated with the mRNA vaccine.  This enables his immune system to the same standard as person A.   B is infected with SARS-CoV-2 and his immune system mounts a swift attack but fails to prevent all the symptoms and he falls ill for a few days and has to self-isolate since he may be infectious.

C is vaccinated with the mRNA vaccine.  This enables his immune system to the same standard as persons A and B.  C is infected with SARS-CoV-2 and his immune system mounts a swift attack which eliminates symptoms and allows him to continue as normal not knowing if they are infectious or not.

What is the difference between these three people who have all been infected with SARS-CoV-2?   Are all or only some asymptomatic people not infectious?   If we don't know that for the population at large then how can we know it for a smaller group without also knowing how it works for the whole population?

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 17, 2020, 12:32:42 PM

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 12:11:37 PM

Quote from: Statto on December 17, 2020, 11:23:07 AM

Quote from: filham on December 17, 2020, 10:46:15 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 09:19:40 AM
It is worth repeating that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does nothing to protect other people from infection by you if you catch Covid-19 and are asymptomatic by virtue of the vaccine.  Crazy but true.

I understood that it has yet to be determined whether or not the vacine would prevent re transmission by carriers but that there is hope that it will.

that was my understanding also

So immunisation jab on something they cant say wont necessarily stop re-transmission? Have we all been brainwashed that badly?

First they have produced vaccines in record time, secondly, the vaccines produced, reportedly, are twice as effective as any brought out before. The more I look at it, the less chance I will take it. For the record I'm 64 Diabetic and have High blood pressure.

The next thing they will try to convince me of is that if my aunty had a pair or nuts, she'd be my uncle. UNBELIEVABLE

ok Blingo ,what do you intend doing if you don't take the vaccine and the pubs and football grounds restaurants etc go back to some normality.Stay indoors?

They can't force you to take this vaccine. The Governments will have to decide what is right or not. Why are the govs of the world not then making it compulsory to take it?

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 12:43:10 PM

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 17, 2020, 12:32:42 PM

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 12:11:37 PM

Quote from: Statto on December 17, 2020, 11:23:07 AM

Quote from: filham on December 17, 2020, 10:46:15 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 09:19:40 AM
It is worth repeating that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does nothing to protect other people from infection by you if you catch Covid-19 and are asymptomatic by virtue of the vaccine.  Crazy but true.

I understood that it has yet to be determined whether or not the vacine would prevent re transmission by carriers but that there is hope that it will.

that was my understanding also

So immunisation jab on something they cant say wont necessarily stop re-transmission? Have we all been brainwashed that badly?

First they have produced vaccines in record time, secondly, the vaccines produced, reportedly, are twice as effective as any brought out before. The more I look at it, the less chance I will take it. For the record I'm 64 Diabetic and have High blood pressure.

The next thing they will try to convince me of is that if my aunty had a pair or nuts, she'd be my uncle. UNBELIEVABLE

ok Blingo ,what do you intend doing if you don't take the vaccine and the pubs and football grounds restaurants etc go back to some normality.Stay indoors?

They can't force you to take this vaccine. The Governments will have to decide what is right or not. Why are the govs of the world not then making it compulsory to take it?

I am not suggesting it should be compulsory just asking someone like you goodself how you intend to carry on whilst resisting taking the Vaccine when restrictions ease.

Quote from: Statto on December 17, 2020, 11:23:07 AM

Quote from: filham on December 17, 2020, 10:46:15 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 09:19:40 AM
It is worth repeating that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does nothing to protect other people from infection by you if you catch Covid-19 and are asymptomatic by virtue of the vaccine.  Crazy but true.

I understood that it has yet to be determined whether or not the vacine would prevent re transmission by carriers but that there is hope that it will.

that was my understanding also

Me too

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 12:11:37 PM

Quote from: Statto on December 17, 2020, 11:23:07 AM

Quote from: filham on December 17, 2020, 10:46:15 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 09:19:40 AM
It is worth repeating that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does nothing to protect other people from infection by you if you catch Covid-19 and are asymptomatic by virtue of the vaccine.  Crazy but true.

I understood that it has yet to be determined whether or not the vacine would prevent re transmission by carriers but that there is hope that it will.

that was my understanding also

So immunisation jab on something they cant say wont necessarily stop re-transmission? Have we all been brainwashed that badly?

First they have produced vaccines in record time, secondly, the vaccines produced, reportedly, are twice as effective as any brought out before. The more I look at it, the less chance I will take it. For the record I'm 64 Diabetic and have High blood pressure.

The next thing they will try to convince me of is that if my aunty had a pair or nuts, she'd be my uncle. UNBELIEVABLE

Personally I find your attitude a complete disgrace. And your refusal to take the vaccine anti-social and irresponsible. I also find your comments about brainwashing totally unjustified.

You must do as you wish however I hope we don't hear you complaint if your stance means you can't get on a flight, can't enter crowded venues, etc. You will just have to suck it up.

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 12:11:37 PM

Quote from: Statto on December 17, 2020, 11:23:07 AM

Quote from: filham on December 17, 2020, 10:46:15 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 09:19:40 AM
It is worth repeating that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does nothing to protect other people from infection by you if you catch Covid-19 and are asymptomatic by virtue of the vaccine.  Crazy but true.

I understood that it has yet to be determined whether or not the vacine would prevent re transmission by carriers but that there is hope that it will.

that was my understanding also

So immunisation jab on something they cant say wont necessarily stop re-transmission? Have we all been brainwashed that badly?

First they have produced vaccines in record time, secondly, the vaccines produced, reportedly, are twice as effective as any brought out before. The more I look at it, the less chance I will take it. For the record I'm 64 Diabetic and have High blood pressure.

The next thing they will try to convince me of is that if my aunty had a pair or nuts, she'd be my uncle. UNBELIEVABLE

The vaccine will reduce your chances of getting sick

If you don't want to take it, fine, but it means you may get the virus, you may end up in ICU with pneumonia, and that may mean there isn't a spare bed for some poor kid who comes in after you having been caught in a nasty RTA or something 

As I've said on other threads, the moral quandary would be resolved IMO if those who've declined the vaccine, then end up seriously ill with Covid, were either turned away or deprioritised if they turn up at an NHS hospital. If they're so comfortable with the virus' low mortality rate that shouldn't be an issue for them.

Ooh spiteful.

The biggest 'unknown' is once people are inoculated, how long will the vaccine protect them, they can give a definitive answer. Two experts were being interviewed at the same time. One said 2 years, the other rowed back on that saying we don't know, could be between 6 - 12 months. They just don't know, it's guess work at the moment.

Imagine being threatened with societal ostracization for not taking an experimental vaccine for a virus that has a ~+99% survival rate, when it's not even known whether the vaccine will prevent contagiousness.

Quote from: bog on December 14, 2020, 11:43:47 AM
I am third in the list being 75 but I am concerned about any possible after effects.

092.gif

The only after effect I have bog is a sore arm.

Quote from: Peabody on December 17, 2020, 03:06:55 PM

Quote from: bog on December 14, 2020, 11:43:47 AM
I am third in the list being 75 but I am concerned about any possible after effects.

092.gif

The only after effect I have bog is a sore arm.

My mum had it a couple of days ago and said it was no worse than her annual flu jab, in terms of there being a scratching sensation when the injection happens, and a slightly sore arm for a day or so.

She's happy, although regardless of the vaccine the impact of Covid this past year has made her naturally more cautious when out and about. As a very active, sociable 85 year-old it's been a bit of a change for her.

Look, we are in middle of something we have never experienced before, a pandemic that if left unchallenged, could decimate whole populations, as well as the economies of the whole world, an effect that could not only effect our children but also our grandchildren and all that follow them.

So, I see it my duty to take these vaccines, even if the give me green hair and my teeth fall out. Apparently, COVID 19 is not going to go away and therefore we must take any steps to counter it's virulence and make sure it doesn't cause to much harm.

I am not the greatest fan of Boris and think he is playing a dangerous game over the
Christmas business but he is our PM and We have to go with him.

I have had the vaccine, it doesn't hurt except for a sore arm, so just get in the queue and get yours too

Don't worry about the sore arm
one of the side effects is that you will
be growing three more in a few months.

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 17, 2020, 01:35:59 PM

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 12:43:10 PM

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 17, 2020, 12:32:42 PM

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 12:11:37 PM

Quote from: Statto on December 17, 2020, 11:23:07 AM

Quote from: filham on December 17, 2020, 10:46:15 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 09:19:40 AM
It is worth repeating that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does nothing to protect other people from infection by you if you catch Covid-19 and are asymptomatic by virtue of the vaccine.  Crazy but true.

I understood that it has yet to be determined whether or not the vacine would prevent re transmission by carriers but that there is hope that it will.

that was my understanding also

So immunisation jab on something they cant say wont necessarily stop re-transmission? Have we all been brainwashed that badly?

First they have produced vaccines in record time, secondly, the vaccines produced, reportedly, are twice as effective as any brought out before. The more I look at it, the less chance I will take it. For the record I'm 64 Diabetic and have High blood pressure.

The next thing they will try to convince me of is that if my aunty had a pair or nuts, she'd be my uncle. UNBELIEVABLE

ok Blingo ,what do you intend doing if you don't take the vaccine and the pubs and football grounds restaurants etc go back to some normality.Stay indoors?

They can't force you to take this vaccine. The Governments will have to decide what is right or not. Why are the govs of the world not then making it compulsory to take it?

I am not suggesting it should be compulsory just asking someone like you goodself how you intend to carry on whilst resisting taking the Vaccine when restrictions ease.

Exactly as I did before all this scaremongering started

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 04:20:43 PM

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 17, 2020, 01:35:59 PM

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 12:43:10 PM

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 17, 2020, 12:32:42 PM

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 12:11:37 PM

Quote from: Statto on December 17, 2020, 11:23:07 AM

Quote from: filham on December 17, 2020, 10:46:15 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 09:19:40 AM
It is worth repeating that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does nothing to protect other people from infection by you if you catch Covid-19 and are asymptomatic by virtue of the vaccine.  Crazy but true.

I understood that it has yet to be determined whether or not the vacine would prevent re transmission by carriers but that there is hope that it will.

that was my understanding also

So immunisation jab on something they cant say wont necessarily stop re-transmission? Have we all been brainwashed that badly?

First they have produced vaccines in record time, secondly, the vaccines produced, reportedly, are twice as effective as any brought out before. The more I look at it, the less chance I will take it. For the record I'm 64 Diabetic and have High blood pressure.

The next thing they will try to convince me of is that if my aunty had a pair or nuts, she'd be my uncle. UNBELIEVABLE

ok Blingo ,what do you intend doing if you don't take the vaccine and the pubs and football grounds restaurants etc go back to some normality.Stay indoors?

They can't force you to take this vaccine. The Governments will have to decide what is right or not. Why are the govs of the world not then making it compulsory to take it?

I am not suggesting it should be compulsory just asking someone like you goodself how you intend to carry on whilst resisting taking the Vaccine when restrictions ease.

Exactly as I did before all this scaremongering started

There is no point trying to convince someone who has made up their mind. But i noticed you raised some points to justify your position which is fair. With the "flu" vaccine for the influenza virus, it's pretty much a best guess if the vaccine combination will work for that years dominant strain/mutation. Most of the Covid 19 vaccines are aimed at the spike protein and use a genetic approach rather than an immune response to parts of the virus. This technology is being used for Cancer treatment etc and is pretty ground breaking. Virus insert their DNA into ours all the time, so in that respect it's nothing to be worried about. It has a high response rate because it is such good technology. Traditional vaccine use ancient technology in comparison. They managed to do in less than 12 months because all of these vaccines were already in development for other diseases eg Ebola, cancer etc.
Masks, you mention you used the same mask all the time to avoid fines. Hope you wash it daily just for personal hygiene. Mask don't protect you, they protect others from you. If two people wear masks properly, there is a 98% or so chance of not transmitting the virus. Way less if only one person. They are not designed to prevent you getting the virus but to slow down the spread.
So you may choose not to take the vaccine. Your choice (at this stage). There is anecdotal evidence that it may confer some protection from transmission. The reason why Covid 19 is such a pain is that you can be carrier for quiet some time before the immune system kicks in. If you are vaccinated there is good chance that your immune system can detect it earlier and mount a controlled response. the problem is when the body mounts a very aggressive uncontrolled response. With your age and conditions, you have a higher risk of this. Think of it like a seat belt. You don't really need it most of the time. It can dig into your neck and be a bit of pain. you keep having to take it off and put it on again. Would you still wear it if if was not a legal requirement? in the very small chance you have a serious car accident it will safe your life, but in an extremely small chance the seat belt could actually hinder you getting out of the car. As someone else mentioned, getting pneumonia because of Covid will tie up an intensive care bed. So if a kid was in a car crash and it's during the flu season when health services are stretched, it could mean that you or the kid cannot get the care needed as there is only one bed....
So i don't think that i changed your mind, but hopefully helped you understand that the new vaccines work and are quick because the already existed. For your sake, i hope you change your mind and get vaccinated.

Quote from: Huxley on December 17, 2020, 06:39:11 PM

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 04:20:43 PM

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 17, 2020, 01:35:59 PM

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 12:43:10 PM

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 17, 2020, 12:32:42 PM

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 12:11:37 PM

Quote from: Statto on December 17, 2020, 11:23:07 AM

Quote from: filham on December 17, 2020, 10:46:15 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 09:19:40 AM
It is worth repeating that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does nothing to protect other people from infection by you if you catch Covid-19 and are asymptomatic by virtue of the vaccine.  Crazy but true.

I understood that it has yet to be determined whether or not the vacine would prevent re transmission by carriers but that there is hope that it will.

that was my understanding also

So immunisation jab on something they cant say wont necessarily stop re-transmission? Have we all been brainwashed that badly?

First they have produced vaccines in record time, secondly, the vaccines produced, reportedly, are twice as effective as any brought out before. The more I look at it, the less chance I will take it. For the record I'm 64 Diabetic and have High blood pressure.

The next thing they will try to convince me of is that if my aunty had a pair or nuts, she'd be my uncle. UNBELIEVABLE

ok Blingo ,what do you intend doing if you don't take the vaccine and the pubs and football grounds restaurants etc go back to some normality.Stay indoors?

They can't force you to take this vaccine. The Governments will have to decide what is right or not. Why are the govs of the world not then making it compulsory to take it?

I am not suggesting it should be compulsory just asking someone like you goodself how you intend to carry on whilst resisting taking the Vaccine when restrictions ease.

Exactly as I did before all this scaremongering started

There is no point trying to convince someone who has made up their mind. But i noticed you raised some points to justify your position which is fair. With the "flu" vaccine for the influenza virus, it's pretty much a best guess if the vaccine combination will work for that years dominant strain/mutation. Most of the Covid 19 vaccines are aimed at the spike protein and use a genetic approach rather than an immune response. This technology is being used for Cancer treatment etc and is pretty ground breaking. Virus insert their DNA into ours all the time, so in that respect it's nothing to be worried about. It has a high response rate because it is such good technology. Traditional vaccine use ancient technology in comparison. They managed to do in less than 12 months because all of these vaccines were already in development for other diseases eg Ebola, cancer etc.
Masks, you mention you used the same mask all the time to avoid fines. Hope you wash it daily just for personal hygiene. Mask don't protect you, they protect others from you. If two people wear masks properly, there is a 98% or so chance of transmitting the virus. Way less if only one person. They are not designed to prevent you getting the virus but to slow down the spread.
So you may choose not to take the vaccine. Your choice (at this stage). There is anecdotal evidence that it may confer some protection from transmission. The reason why Covid 19 is such a pain is that you can be carrier for quiet some time before the immune system kicks in. If you are vaccinated there is goof chance that your immune system can detect it earlier and mount a controlled response. the problem is when the body mounts a very aggressive uncontrolled response. With your age and conditions, you have a higher risk of this. Think of it like a seat belt. You don't really need it most of the time. It can dig into your neck and be a bit of pain. you keep having to take it off and put it on again. Would you still wear it if if was not a legal requirement? in the very small chance you have a serious car accident it will safe your life, but in an extremely small chance the seat belt could actually hinder you getting out of the car. As someone else mentioned, getting pneumonia because of Covid will tie up an intensive care bed. So if a kid was in a car crash and it's during the flu season when health services are stretched, it could mean that you or the kid cannot get the care needed as there is only one bed....
So i don't think that i changed your mind, but hopefully helped you understand that the new vaccines work and are quick because the already existed. For your sake, i hope you change your mind and get vaccinated.

I would think the 50000 plus families who had a loved one die would call it scaremongering.

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 17, 2020, 09:51:02 AM

Quote from: Logicalman on December 16, 2020, 08:28:31 PM

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 16, 2020, 07:05:04 PM
Quick question to anybody say over 70 who doesn't want to have the Vaccine.Are you going to take a risk and go out when the restrictions diminish or wait until enough people have taken the Vaccine before going out?Or something else?

Would that matter though?

If you get the vaccine, does it inhibit you from spreading the virus, even if you are immune to it?

What I mean is: Doesn't the vaccine simply protect YOU should the virus get into your system, or does it kill it immediately, considering one can be infectious prior to symptoms appearing?

I thought it was a pretty simple Question to the over70's on this board who decide not to take the vaccine when offered.There were some but can't find the original thread.

I get what you're asking, but I'm asking would it matter whether they stayed indoors until you point of "wait until enough people have taken the Vaccine before going out", because if a person can still transmit the virus even following immunity to themselves, then the risk to those who have not had the jab remains until the virus is wiped out completely, notwithstanding how ever many have had the jab.

Quote from: Huxley on December 17, 2020, 06:39:11 PM

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 04:20:43 PM

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 17, 2020, 01:35:59 PM

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 12:43:10 PM

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 17, 2020, 12:32:42 PM

Quote from: blingo on December 17, 2020, 12:11:37 PM

Quote from: Statto on December 17, 2020, 11:23:07 AM

Quote from: filham on December 17, 2020, 10:46:15 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 17, 2020, 09:19:40 AM
It is worth repeating that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine does nothing to protect other people from infection by you if you catch Covid-19 and are asymptomatic by virtue of the vaccine.  Crazy but true.

I understood that it has yet to be determined whether or not the vacine would prevent re transmission by carriers but that there is hope that it will.

that was my understanding also

So immunisation jab on something they cant say wont necessarily stop re-transmission? Have we all been brainwashed that badly?

First they have produced vaccines in record time, secondly, the vaccines produced, reportedly, are twice as effective as any brought out before. The more I look at it, the less chance I will take it. For the record I'm 64 Diabetic and have High blood pressure.

The next thing they will try to convince me of is that if my aunty had a pair or nuts, she'd be my uncle. UNBELIEVABLE

ok Blingo ,what do you intend doing if you don't take the vaccine and the pubs and football grounds restaurants etc go back to some normality.Stay indoors?

They can't force you to take this vaccine. The Governments will have to decide what is right or not. Why are the govs of the world not then making it compulsory to take it?

I am not suggesting it should be compulsory just asking someone like you goodself how you intend to carry on whilst resisting taking the Vaccine when restrictions ease.

Exactly as I did before all this scaremongering started

There is no point trying to convince someone who has made up their mind. But i noticed you raised some points to justify your position which is fair. With the "flu" vaccine for the influenza virus, it's pretty much a best guess if the vaccine combination will work for that years dominant strain/mutation. Most of the Covid 19 vaccines are aimed at the spike protein and use a genetic approach rather than an immune response. This technology is being used for Cancer treatment etc and is pretty ground breaking. Virus insert their DNA into ours all the time, so in that respect it's nothing to be worried about. It has a high response rate because it is such good technology. Traditional vaccine use ancient technology in comparison. They managed to do in less than 12 months because all of these vaccines were already in development for other diseases eg Ebola, cancer etc.
Masks, you mention you used the same mask all the time to avoid fines. Hope you wash it daily just for personal hygiene. Mask don't protect you, they protect others from you. If two people wear masks properly, there is a 98% or so chance of transmitting the virus. Way less if only one person. They are not designed to prevent you getting the virus but to slow down the spread.
So you may choose not to take the vaccine. Your choice (at this stage). There is anecdotal evidence that it may confer some protection from transmission. The reason why Covid 19 is such a pain is that you can be carrier for quiet some time before the immune system kicks in. If you are vaccinated there is goof chance that your immune system can detect it earlier and mount a controlled response. the problem is when the body mounts a very aggressive uncontrolled response. With your age and conditions, you have a higher risk of this. Think of it like a seat belt. You don't really need it most of the time. It can dig into your neck and be a bit of pain. you keep having to take it off and put it on again. Would you still wear it if if was not a legal requirement? in the very small chance you have a serious car accident it will safe your life, but in an extremely small chance the seat belt could actually hinder you getting out of the car. As someone else mentioned, getting pneumonia because of Covid will tie up an intensive care bed. So if a kid was in a car crash and it's during the flu season when health services are stretched, it could mean that you or the kid cannot get the care needed as there is only one bed....
So i don't think that i changed your mind, but hopefully helped you understand that the new vaccines work and are quick because the already existed. For your sake, i hope you change your mind and get vaccinated.

So well put Huxley but there are none so blind as those who will not see!

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 17, 2020, 02:37:09 PM
Imagine being threatened with societal ostracization for not taking an experimental vaccine for a virus that has a ~+99% survival rate, when it's not even known whether the vaccine will prevent contagiousness.

Well more than 30 poor souls are dying every day in the UK and the global death toll is horrible.  However I think arguments like these miss a key point. The pandemic has shut down or contracted large parts of both our economy and the global one. Economic hardship is rife and 100's of thousands in the UK alone have lost their jobs.  Vaccination is the key hope of restoring conditions in which the economy can reboot and global growth restart. The slower we are to achieve this the greater the long term hardship.
I'm lucky to be in a relatively secure financial position but billions around the world are less fortunate. Economic contraction means huge hardship but even if you don't care about that, ponder the impact of an inexorable rise in economic migrancy!

Quote from: Twig on December 18, 2020, 12:37:38 PM

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 17, 2020, 02:37:09 PM
Imagine being threatened with societal ostracization for not taking an experimental vaccine for a virus that has a ~+99% survival rate, when it's not even known whether the vaccine will prevent contagiousness.

Well more than 30 poor souls are dying every day in the UK and the global death toll is horrible.  However I think arguments like these miss a key point. The pandemic has shut down or contracted large parts of both our economy and the global one. Economic hardship is rife and 100's of thousands in the UK alone have lost their jobs.  Vaccination is the key hope of restoring conditions in which the economy can reboot and global growth restart. The slower we are to achieve this the greater the long term hardship.
I'm lucky to be in a relatively secure financial position but billions around the world are less fortunate. Economic contraction means huge hardship but even if you don't care about that, ponder the impact of an inexorable rise in economic migrancy!

Good question, Twig - where shall we go?

Quote from: Twig on December 18, 2020, 12:37:38 PM

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 17, 2020, 02:37:09 PM
Imagine being threatened with societal ostracization for not taking an experimental vaccine for a virus that has a ~+99% survival rate, when it's not even known whether the vaccine will prevent contagiousness.

Well more than 30 poor souls are dying every day in the UK and the global death toll is horrible.  However I think arguments like these miss a key point. The pandemic has shut down or contracted large parts of both our economy and the global one. Economic hardship is rife and 100's of thousands in the UK alone have lost their jobs.  Vaccination is the key hope of restoring conditions in which the economy can reboot and global growth restart. The slower we are to achieve this the greater the long term hardship.

In the best case scenario, yes.

A possible worst-case scenario would be for ~50 million people to take the vaccine, and 1% of those to suffer severe adverse reactions in the following years, for which they would be liable to claim compensation of £120,000 each from the UK government (not the vaccine manufacturers; they have a legal indemnity). That would cost £60 billion before factoring in potential lost tax revenue or cost of treatment etc.

https://www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment (https://www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment)
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-add-covid-19-to-vaccine-damage-payments-scheme (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-add-covid-19-to-vaccine-damage-payments-scheme)

Selective vaccination which weighs up risks/gains and only targets the elderly/vulnerable could still come a good distance towards achieving the desired outcome, but without the risk of the above scenario unfolding on a disastrous scale. Furthermore if no such scenario as the above does unfold there will be many people happy to be vaccinated at a later date.

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 18, 2020, 01:29:28 PM

Quote from: Twig on December 18, 2020, 12:37:38 PM

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 17, 2020, 02:37:09 PM
Imagine being threatened with societal ostracization for not taking an experimental vaccine for a virus that has a ~+99% survival rate, when it's not even known whether the vaccine will prevent contagiousness.

Well more than 30 poor souls are dying every day in the UK and the global death toll is horrible.  However I think arguments like these miss a key point. The pandemic has shut down or contracted large parts of both our economy and the global one. Economic hardship is rife and 100's of thousands in the UK alone have lost their jobs.  Vaccination is the key hope of restoring conditions in which the economy can reboot and global growth restart. The slower we are to achieve this the greater the long term hardship.

In the best case scenario, yes.

A possible worst-case scenario would be for ~50 million people to take the vaccine, and 1% of those to suffer severe adverse reactions in the following years, for which they would be liable to claim compensation of £120,000 each from the UK government (not the vaccine manufacturers; they have a legal indemnity). That would cost £60 billion before factoring in potential lost tax revenue or cost of treatment etc.

https://www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment (https://www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment)
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-add-covid-19-to-vaccine-damage-payments-scheme (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-add-covid-19-to-vaccine-damage-payments-scheme)

Selective vaccination which weighs up risks/gains and only targets the elderly/vulnerable could still come a good distance towards achieving the desired outcome, but without the risk of the above scenario unfolding on a disastrous scale. Furthermore if no such scenario as the above does unfold there will be many people happy to be vaccinated at a later date.

Yes that may help if all the group's you talk about take the vaccine but as you can see from some on here they are not willing to do so.

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 18, 2020, 01:51:14 PM

Yes that may help if all the group's you talk about take the vaccine but as you can see from some on here they are not willing to do so.

I agree with taking the vaccine and will do as soon as I'm offered (low risk group as still south of 50), however...
If those that chose not to take it contract the disease, thankfully they won't be able to pass it on to the most at risk people (who've been vacc'd) but can and will to those that won't yet have been vacc'd. It's a huge issue as it'll serve only to prolong the health hardships that people face, but also the economic ones too.

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 18, 2020, 01:29:28 PM

Quote from: Twig on December 18, 2020, 12:37:38 PM

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 17, 2020, 02:37:09 PM
Imagine being threatened with societal ostracization for not taking an experimental vaccine for a virus that has a ~+99% survival rate, when it's not even known whether the vaccine will prevent contagiousness.

Well more than 430 poor souls are dying every day in the UK and the global death toll is horrible.  However I think arguments like these miss a key point. The pandemic has shut down or contracted large parts of both our economy and the global one. Economic hardship is rife and 100's of thousands in the UK alone have lost their jobs.  Vaccination is the key hope of restoring conditions in which the economy can reboot and global growth restart. The slower we are to achieve this the greater the long term hardship.

In the best case scenario, yes.

A possible worst-case scenario would be for ~50 million people to take the vaccine, and 1% of those to suffer severe adverse reactions in the following years, for which they would be liable to claim compensation of £120,000 each from the UK government (not the vaccine manufacturers; they have a legal indemnity). That would cost £60 billion before factoring in potential lost tax revenue or cost of treatment etc.

https://www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment (https://www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment)
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-add-covid-19-to-vaccine-damage-payments-scheme (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-add-covid-19-to-vaccine-damage-payments-scheme)

Selective vaccination which weighs up risks/gains and only targets the elderly/vulnerable could still come a good distance towards achieving the desired outcome, but without the risk of the above scenario unfolding on a disastrous scale. Furthermore if no such scenario as the above does unfold there will be many people happy to be vaccinated at a later date.

To be accurate all bar one manufacturer has legal indemnity. And your figures are pure speculation. But to be frank £60 bil is chicken poo compared to the damage to the global economy. Global debt crises, pension funds underfunded, unit funds underperforming, corporate debt and bankruptcies, rising unemployment, long term stagflation. And then the dire social impact of all that economic disaster. That's what scares me. And that broader picture is part of the reason (alongside the health benefits), why I argue we have a social responsibility to take the vaccine.

Quote from: Jim© on December 18, 2020, 02:45:55 PM

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 18, 2020, 01:51:14 PM

Yes that may help if all the group's you talk about take the vaccine but as you can see from some on here they are not willing to do so.

I agree with taking the vaccine and will do as soon as I'm offered (low risk group as still south of 50), however...
If those that chose not to take it contract the disease, thankfully they won't be able to pass it on to the most at risk people (who've been vacc'd) but can and will to those that won't yet have been vacc'd. It's a huge issue as it'll serve only to prolong the health hardships that people face, but also the economic ones too.

What is to stop the 'most at risk people' declining if they wish to?

Quote from: Southcoastffc on December 18, 2020, 03:37:27 PM

Quote from: Jim© on December 18, 2020, 02:45:55 PM

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 18, 2020, 01:51:14 PM

Yes that may help if all the group's you talk about take the vaccine but as you can see from some on here they are not willing to do so.

I agree with taking the vaccine and will do as soon as I'm offered (low risk group as still south of 50), however...
If those that chose not to take it contract the disease, thankfully they won't be able to pass it on to the most at risk people (who've been vacc'd) but can and will to those that won't yet have been vacc'd. It's a huge issue as it'll serve only to prolong the health hardships that people face, but also the economic ones too.

What is to stop the 'most at risk people' declining if they wish to?

Nothing at all. But from people in that age group that I've spoken to, they're more keen than anyone to get their lives moving again and they see a vaccine as a huge boost toward doing just that.

Quote from: Southcoastffc on December 18, 2020, 03:37:27 PM

Quote from: Jim© on December 18, 2020, 02:45:55 PM

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 18, 2020, 01:51:14 PM

Yes that may help if all the group's you talk about take the vaccine but as you can see from some on here they are not willing to do so.

I agree with taking the vaccine and will do as soon as I'm offered (low risk group as still south of 50), however...
If those that chose not to take it contract the disease, thankfully they won't be able to pass it on to the most at risk people (who've been vacc'd) but can and will to those that won't yet have been vacc'd. It's a huge issue as it'll serve only to prolong the health hardships that people face, but also the economic ones too.

What is to stop the 'most at risk people' declining if they wish to?

It's an invitation, I think a lot of the 'vulnerable' people will have it, the risks of not having it are just too great. My elderly dad had it yesterday, he just had a sore arm that you get with any inoculation.

Quote from: Twig on December 18, 2020, 03:30:05 PM
To be accurate all bar one manufacturer has legal indemnity.

AstraZeneca and Pfizer have both reportedly been granted legal indemnity, the latter of which having already been rolled out and the former still under consideration.

Quote from: Twig on December 18, 2020, 03:30:05 PM
And your figures are pure speculation.

I don't deny that those figures are speculation, it is something which nonetheless is within the realms of possibility slim as that may be. It also demonstrates that these manufacturers are not comfortable with shouldering the risk of their product, despite being in line to make tens of billions profit out of it.

Quote from: Twig on December 18, 2020, 03:30:05 PM
But to be frank £60 bil is chicken poo compared to the damage to the global economy.

I am talking within the context of Britain, for which that would represent a significant figure on top of existing Covid related expenditure.

Quote from: Twig on December 18, 2020, 03:30:05 PM
Global debt crises, pension funds underfunded, unit funds underperforming, corporate debt and bankruptcies, rising unemployment, long term stagflation. And then the dire social impact of all that economic disaster. That's what scares me. And that broader picture is part of the reason (alongside the health benefits), why I argue we have a social responsibility to take the vaccine.

As desperate as we are to curtail the problems Covid has caused, the aforementioned scenario could be equally disastrous. For the elderly & vulnerable the health benefit of the vaccine eclipses the risk, but as you go down the age groups that benefit gradually dwindles to nothing, with no guarantee that the vaccine will even prevent them from becoming contagious. Do we not have a social responsibility to weigh up the balance of risk & reward?

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 18, 2020, 04:28:14 PM
For the elderly & vulnerable the health benefit of the vaccine eclipses the risk, but as you go down the age groups that benefit gradually dwindles to nothing, with no guarantee that the vaccine will even prevent them from becoming contagious.

But at any age, there's a risk, of dying or ending up in ICU or developing long Covid. At the age of say 25, that risk may be lower, say 1 in 10,000 or something like that, but the risk of dying from taking the vaccine is clearly even lower still, given tens of thousands of people have had it without it killing them already. It seems totally inconsistent to me to say, on the one hand, "I don't care about the virus because it has a 99.5% survival rate', but on the other hand, 'I'm scared of taking a vaccine because there's a 0.000001% chance it will harm me.'

I also agree with Twig above - in the "possible" (query the use of that term) worst case scenario of 500,000 vaccine recipients getting sick from it and suing the UK taxpayer for £60 billion, that figure does indeed pale in comparison to the amount Covid has cost so far, even just looking at the UK. The current bill just for us is still already in the hundreds of billions.

Quote from: Statto on December 19, 2020, 12:50:46 AMBut at any age, there's a risk, of dying or ending up in ICU or developing long Covid. At the age of say 25, that risk may be lower, say 1 in 10,000 or something like that, but the risk of dying from taking the vaccine is clearly even lower still, given tens of thousands of people have had it without it killing them already. It seems totally inconsistent to me to say, on the one hand, "I don't care about the virus because it has a 99.5% survival rate', but on the other hand, 'I'm scared of taking a vaccine because there's a 0.000001% chance it will harm me.'

The key difference is that the risks attached to the virus can be reliably quantified at this time, whereas potential long-term risks attached to the vaccine are still a relative unknown. It is acknowledged that this will require follow-up analysis & live reporting (https://coronavirus-yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/). Hopefully by the time people in my age group are offered it (rough guess 8-9 months from now) it'll be definitive.

These 'vaccines' would normally take 15 years to develop, everything has been 'fast tracked', so there is a greater risk then if the 'vaccine' had gone through the normal processes of development (the Government has been clear about that). The benefits to everyone i.e. the individual, society, healthcare etc outweigh the risks. As of yet nobody has had the second jab, another couple of weeks.

2014 on vaccines for FLU.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2014/12/novartis-flu-vaccine-hold-italy-after-suspicious-deaths.

Why are the number of flu cases not reported everyday? How many people have died from flu since this started?

Protect the elderly and the vulnerable and let everyone else get on with life. The Governments have ROYALLY screwed up and the WHO worse.
You can not prosecute the firms making the vaccines? Why not? If they are so sure that its safe? Government inadequacies will kill far more people than this virus will. They will also leave many mentally scarred, many in abject poverty, and the world economies in tatters.

My daughter in law caught covid, yet my son living in the same house did not. So I too have first hand experience of c19.

Why did the Chinese and WHO not shut down international borders last December?

Why did the WHO say that masks were not needed then change their mind?

Why are there curfews in place, does c19 switch off after say 6pm?

So many questions without answers here and no one takes responsability for any of it. If you want to have a go at anyone, blame world governments for failing to act sooner allowing the spread and for destroying their countries economies over a virus with a 99.7% survival rate.

I can't believe more people do not question these actions.

There are far more questions than answers here and im sorry but im not convinced at all.

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 19, 2020, 03:22:10 AM
The key difference is that the risks attached to the virus can be reliably quantified at this time, whereas potential long-term risks attached to the vaccine are still a relative unknown.

Sorry but how do you come to that conclusion?

All we know at the moment is that if 10,000 people catch the virus, around 50 will die and several hundred will be severely ill in the near term. As to long-term effects (long Covid, permanent lung damage etc) we don't know anything for sure, because it's a novel virus. We'll know more in time.

Whereas if 10,000 take the vaccine, none will die or be severely ill in the near term. As to the long-term effects, there's no evidence or reasoning that it'll have any, but of course we can't know for sure because again, it's a novel treatment.

Now I could perhaps understand some mild concern about the vaccine but there is no way you can bend logic or numbers to make taking it seem more risky than catching the virus.

Quote from: blingo on December 19, 2020, 10:19:32 AM
2014 on vaccines for FLU.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2014/12/novartis-flu-vaccine-hold-italy-after-suspicious-deaths.

Why are the number of flu cases not reported everyday? How many people have died from flu since this started?

Protect the elderly and the vulnerable and let everyone else get on with life. The Governments have ROYALLY screwed up and the WHO worse.
You can not prosecute the firms making the vaccines? Why not? If they are so sure that its safe? Government inadequacies will kill far more people than this virus will. They will also leave many mentally scarred, many in abject poverty, and the world economies in tatters.

My daughter in law caught covid, yet my son living in the same house did not. So I too have first hand experience of c19.

Why did the Chinese and WHO not shut down international borders last December?

Why did the WHO say that masks were not needed then change their mind?

Why are there curfews in place, does c19 switch off after say 6pm?

So many questions without answers here and no one takes responsability for any of it. If you want to have a go at anyone, blame world governments for failing to act sooner allowing the spread and for destroying their countries economies over a virus with a 99.7% survival rate.

I can't believe more people do not question these actions.

There are far more questions than answers here and im sorry but im not convinced at all.

Lots of what's ifs .What if you contract it and pass it round when you carry on as normal when things open up as you plan to do.What if you contract it and die and even worse spend a month in icu before it kills you.

Has the Evidence of Asymptomatic Spread of COVID-19 been Significantly Overstated? by Dr Clare Craig FRCPath and Jonathan Engler MBChB LLB (12.20)

Abstract

Evidence of transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from patients who remain asymptomatic (as opposed to pre-symptomatic) is found in a body of numerous meta-analyses. Evidence of asymptomatic transmission has been based on only a handful of instances which themselves are questionable. The existence of transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from asymptomatic individuals has become an accepted truth but the evidence for this phenomenon being anything other than mistaken interpretation of false positive test results is weak ...

Seek out the whole paper which can be searched for if you are interested in the science rather than the hyperbole.

If your wary of the vaccine think about this.
It is being given to NHS and other front line staff as a priority. If there turns out to be major unforseen problems with it, as some would have us believe, there won't be anyone to look after you anyway so if you get the virus badly then your stuffed whichever way you look at it.

Quote from: toshes mate on December 19, 2020, 10:49:45 AM
Has the Evidence of Asymptomatic Spread of COVID-19 been Significantly Overstated? by Dr Clare Craig FRCPath and Jonathan Engler MBChB LLB (12.20)

Abstract

Evidence of transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from patients who remain asymptomatic (as opposed to pre-symptomatic) is found in a body of numerous meta-analyses. Evidence of asymptomatic transmission has been based on only a handful of instances which themselves are questionable. The existence of transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from asymptomatic individuals has become an accepted truth but the evidence for this phenomenon being anything other than mistaken interpretation of false positive test results is weak ...

Seek out the whole paper which can be searched for if you are interested in the science rather than the hyperbole.

I have read this paper, and found that it has an issue with it's basis of the meaning of asymptomatic.

"This paper reviews the evidence that people who are asymptomatic (defined in this paper as not only having no symptoms but also never developing symptoms) are capable of carrying SARS-CoV-2 and infecting others. This must be clearly distinguished from pre-symptomatic – there is evidence that some patients can be infectious for a brief period before developing symptoms."

This interpretation is an exact and narrow medical one, that excludes the alternate of pre-symptomatic.
They are correct, though, in the same way that laymen might refer to a common term to cover a wider  meaning of related items, then we have come to understand the term asymptomatic to include both true asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic, by simply meaning that it is a condition at which time there are no symptoms present, notwithstanding they may or may not appear in due course. Medical professionals do tend to dumb down certain terms so that the general public can more easily identify a meaning, even if that is not strictly medically accurate.

The paper even falls into this trap itself in the introduction, by stating "Many of the world's economies have been seriously damaged on the basis of alleged evidence that people with no symptoms can spread SARS-CoV-2." Surely they do mean truly asymptomatic people, don't they, because pre-symptomatic people also show so signs of symptoms.

It does concern me that this article fails to take that into account, and that such titles (headlines) like this impacts the truth of pre-symptomatic infections, simply because people do not differentiate between the two. Overall, the paper does not fully exonerate truly asymptomatic infection, but simply points out the various studies have failed to adhere to that differentiation.

Quote from: Statto on December 15, 2020, 11:23:50 AM
But let's not rewrite the past. In mid-March it wasn't just us, but Germany and all our other peers, who weren't closing borders, weren't mandating masks, weren't even contemplating a lockdown etc. All the talk then was just about letting the virus run it's course like a bad flu season. IIRC it only really kicked off when the Imperial College modelling came out showing the proportion of people that were going unto ICU and how that would overwhelm hospitals. Easy to say now we should have done this or that sooner but we didn't know then what we know now. Even in relation to masks the scientific advice was inconsistent.

Also IMO there's a chance that in further time, once the deaths stop and the economic damage sets in, the pendulum will swing the other way and people will start saying we should never have done any of the things we've done in the last 9 months, we should have just carried on as normal and taken it on the chin in March.

It's alrleady happening. There's a demo on today, of anti lockdown people.

Quote from: Logicalman on December 19, 2020, 11:45:43 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 19, 2020, 10:49:45 AM
Has the Evidence of Asymptomatic Spread of COVID-19 been Significantly Overstated? by Dr Clare Craig FRCPath and Jonathan Engler MBChB LLB (12.20)

Abstract

Evidence of transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from patients who remain asymptomatic (as opposed to pre-symptomatic) is found in a body of numerous meta-analyses. Evidence of asymptomatic transmission has been based on only a handful of instances which themselves are questionable. The existence of transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from asymptomatic individuals has become an accepted truth but the evidence for this phenomenon being anything other than mistaken interpretation of false positive test results is weak ...

Seek out the whole paper which can be searched for if you are interested in the science rather than the hyperbole.

I have read this paper, and found that it has an issue with it's basis of the meaning of asymptomatic.

"This paper reviews the evidence that people who are asymptomatic (defined in this paper as not only having no symptoms but also never developing symptoms) are capable of carrying SARS-CoV-2 and infecting others. This must be clearly distinguished from pre-symptomatic – there is evidence that some patients can be infectious for a brief period before developing symptoms."

This interpretation is an exact and narrow medical one, that excludes the alternate of pre-symptomatic.
They are correct, though, in the same way that laymen might refer to a common term to cover a wider  meaning of related items, then we have come to understand the term asymptomatic to include both true asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic, by simply meaning that it is a condition at which time there are no symptoms present, notwithstanding they may or may not appear in due course. Medical professionals do tend to dumb down certain terms so that the general public can more easily identify a meaning, even if that is not strictly medically accurate.

The paper even falls into this trap itself in the introduction, by stating "Many of the world's economies have been seriously damaged on the basis of alleged evidence that people with no symptoms can spread SARS-CoV-2." Surely they do mean truly asymptomatic people, don't they, because pre-symptomatic people also show so signs of symptoms.

It does concern me that this article fails to take that into account, and that such titles (headlines) like this impacts the truth of pre-symptomatic infections, simply because people do not differentiate between the two. Overall, the paper does not fully exonerate truly asymptomatic infection, but simply points out the various studies have failed to adhere to that differentiation.

A reasonable summary which really states that nobody knows but should one assumption trump all other assumptions? 

I also considered that what they had struggled with is proving what 'asymptomatic' means, period, since you can only know that after the event i.e. you get ill or you don't, and if you don't get ill then how do you prove you transmitted the disease without a really good and reliable test saying you had Covid-19 on the day an infected person caught it from you.  They sought to do so using the wealth of papers that were claiming to have found asymptomatic transmissions when there was very little reliable evidence (other than circumstantial) on very small numbers of cases and in reality suggested that if it is possible to transmit the disease asymptomatically then it happens very rarely. 

For the pre-symptomatic the situation gets even more difficult since what is the period between infection and being symptomatic, does it vary considerably between people and, since it is anecdotal, is it also too subjective?  But I do feel they make the point that accurate testing is a number one priority for any test and rather than ramp up the numbers tested governments should be concentrating on the quality of the test regime and not the quantity of tests.  If we don't do this we are never going to know anything solid about how transmissions occur, when, and why.   

This is why I believe the kind of forensic detail the Iceland test and trace system contains means they can understand and demonstrate these factors much better than many, and, as far as I can tell, they had no asymptomatic infections.

Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 19, 2020, 10:47:46 AM

Quote from: blingo on December 19, 2020, 10:19:32 AM
2014 on vaccines for FLU.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2014/12/novartis-flu-vaccine-hold-italy-after-suspicious-deaths.

Why are the number of flu cases not reported everyday? How many people have died from flu since this started?

Protect the elderly and the vulnerable and let everyone else get on with life. The Governments have ROYALLY screwed up and the WHO worse.
You can not prosecute the firms making the vaccines? Why not? If they are so sure that its safe? Government inadequacies will kill far more people than this virus will. They will also leave many mentally scarred, many in abject poverty, and the world economies in tatters.

My daughter in law caught covid, yet my son living in the same house did not. So I too have first hand experience of c19.

Why did the Chinese and WHO not shut down international borders last December?

Why did the WHO say that masks were not needed then change their mind?

Why are there curfews in place, does c19 switch off after say 6pm?

So many questions without answers here and no one takes responsability for any of it. If you want to have a go at anyone, blame world governments for failing to act sooner allowing the spread and for destroying their countries economies over a virus with a 99.7% survival rate.

I can't believe more people do not question these actions.

There are far more questions than answers here and im sorry but im not convinced at all.

Lots of what's ifs .What if you contract it and pass it round when you carry on as normal when things open up as you plan to do.What if you contract it and die and even worse spend a month in icu before it kills you.

What if i walk out in front of a bus? There's no logic behind any of this.

Quote from: Statto on December 19, 2020, 10:45:29 AM

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 19, 2020, 03:22:10 AM
The key difference is that the risks attached to the virus can be reliably quantified at this time, whereas potential long-term risks attached to the vaccine are still a relative unknown.

Sorry but how do you come to that conclusion?

All we know at the moment is that if 10,000 people catch the virus, around 50 will die and several hundred will be severely ill in the near term. As to long-term effects (long Covid, permanent lung damage etc) we don't know anything for sure, because it's a novel virus. We'll know more in time.

Whereas if 10,000 take the vaccine, none will die or be severely ill in the near term. As to the long-term effects, there's no evidence or reasoning that it'll have any, but of course we can't know for sure because again, it's a novel treatment.

Now I could perhaps understand some mild concern about the vaccine but there is no way you can bend logic or numbers to make taking it seem more risky than catching the virus.

According to data published by the ONS (https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=%2Fpeoplepopulationandcommunity%2Fbirthsdeathsandmarriages%2Fdeaths%2Fdatasets%2Fweeklyprovisionalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales%2F2020/publishedweek492020.xlsx) the total number of men within England & Wales in my age group (30 - 34) attributed to a Covid death up until December 4th is 63.

If we assume that the official number of detected cases (1.8 million in England & Wales, so let's say 900,000 men) represents the real number of cases, extrapolating from that would give approximately a 1 in 14,285 chance of a Covid infection resulting in a death within my age group.

Of course the real number of cases is several times higher than the detected number of cases, especially as most people are asymptomatic, but for the sake of argument if we take that bare minimum number, if there was a potential fatal reaction to the vaccine with an equal chance of occurring it could have very easily evaded the clinical trials in their relatively short scale & time period.

Glad I'm not at yours for dinner lol

Quote from: toshes mate on December 19, 2020, 12:17:53 PM

Quote from: Logicalman on December 19, 2020, 11:45:43 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 19, 2020, 10:49:45 AM
Has the Evidence of Asymptomatic Spread of COVID-19 been Significantly Overstated? by Dr Clare Craig FRCPath and Jonathan Engler MBChB LLB (12.20)

Abstract

Evidence of transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from patients who remain asymptomatic (as opposed to pre-symptomatic) is found in a body of numerous meta-analyses. Evidence of asymptomatic transmission has been based on only a handful of instances which themselves are questionable. The existence of transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from asymptomatic individuals has become an accepted truth but the evidence for this phenomenon being anything other than mistaken interpretation of false positive test results is weak ...

Seek out the whole paper which can be searched for if you are interested in the science rather than the hyperbole.

I have read this paper, and found that it has an issue with it's basis of the meaning of asymptomatic.

"This paper reviews the evidence that people who are asymptomatic (defined in this paper as not only having no symptoms but also never developing symptoms) are capable of carrying SARS-CoV-2 and infecting others. This must be clearly distinguished from pre-symptomatic – there is evidence that some patients can be infectious for a brief period before developing symptoms."

This interpretation is an exact and narrow medical one, that excludes the alternate of pre-symptomatic.
They are correct, though, in the same way that laymen might refer to a common term to cover a wider  meaning of related items, then we have come to understand the term asymptomatic to include both true asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic, by simply meaning that it is a condition at which time there are no symptoms present, notwithstanding they may or may not appear in due course. Medical professionals do tend to dumb down certain terms so that the general public can more easily identify a meaning, even if that is not strictly medically accurate.

The paper even falls into this trap itself in the introduction, by stating "Many of the world's economies have been seriously damaged on the basis of alleged evidence that people with no symptoms can spread SARS-CoV-2." Surely they do mean truly asymptomatic people, don't they, because pre-symptomatic people also show so signs of symptoms.

It does concern me that this article fails to take that into account, and that such titles (headlines) like this impacts the truth of pre-symptomatic infections, simply because people do not differentiate between the two. Overall, the paper does not fully exonerate truly asymptomatic infection, but simply points out the various studies have failed to adhere to that differentiation.

A reasonable summary which really states that nobody knows but should one assumption trump all other assumptions? 

I also considered that what they had struggled with is proving what 'asymptomatic' means, period, since you can only know that after the event i.e. you get ill or you don't, and if you don't get ill then how do you prove you transmitted the disease without a really good and reliable test saying you had Covid-19 on the day an infected person caught it from you.  They sought to do so using the wealth of papers that were claiming to have found asymptomatic transmissions when there was very little reliable evidence (other than circumstantial) on very small numbers of cases and in reality suggested that if it is possible to transmit the disease asymptomatically then it happens very rarely. 

For the pre-symptomatic the situation gets even more difficult since what is the period between infection and being symptomatic, does it vary considerably between people and, since it is anecdotal, is it also too subjective?  But I do feel they make the point that accurate testing is a number one priority for any test and rather than ramp up the numbers tested governments should be concentrating on the quality of the test regime and not the quantity of tests.  If we don't do this we are never going to know anything solid about how transmissions occur, when, and why.   

This is why I believe the kind of forensic detail the Iceland test and trace system contains means they can understand and demonstrate these factors much better than many, and, as far as I can tell, they had no asymptomatic infections.

:54: 

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 19, 2020, 05:05:32 PM
According to data published by the ONS (https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=%2Fpeoplepopulationandcommunity%2Fbirthsdeathsandmarriages%2Fdeaths%2Fdatasets%2Fweeklyprovisionalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales%2F2020/publishedweek492020.xlsx) the total number of men within England & Wales in my age group (30 - 34) attributed to a Covid death up until December 4th is 63.

If we assume that the official number of detected cases (1.8 million in England & Wales, so let's say 900,000 men) represents the real number of cases, extrapolating from that would give approximately a 1 in 14,285 chance of a Covid infection resulting in a death within my age group.

Of course the real number of cases is several times higher than the detected number of cases, especially as most people are asymptomatic, but for the sake of argument if we take that bare minimum number, if there was a potential fatal reaction to the vaccine with an equal chance of occurring it could have very easily evaded the clinical trials in their relatively short scale & time period.

But more than 14,285 people had the vaccine in trials. And none of them died from it. Say it's safer than Covid.

The WHO have issued a medical alert:

"The probability that a person who has a positive result (SARS-CoV-2 detected) is truly infected with SARS-CoV-2 decreases as positivity rate decreases, irrespective of the assay specificity. Therefore, healthcare providers are encouraged to take into consideration testing results along with clinical signs and symptoms, confirmed status of any contacts, etc.

Users of RT-PCR reagents should read the IFU (instructions for use) carefully to determine if manual adjustment of the PCR positivity threshold is necessary to account for any background noise which may lead to a specimen with a high cycle threshold (Ct) value result being interpreted as a positive result.  The design principle of RT-PCR means that for patients with high levels of circulating virus (viral load), relatively few cycles will be needed to detect virus and so the Ct value will be low. Conversely, when specimens return a high Ct value, it means that many cycles were required to detect virus. In some circumstances, the distinction between background noise and actual presence of the target virus is difficult to ascertain. Thus, the IFU will state how to interpret specimens at or near the limit for PCR positivity. In some cases, the IFU will state that the cut-off should be manually adjusted to ensure that specimens with high Ct values are not incorrectly assigned SARS-CoV-2 detected due to background noise."

Quote from: toshes mate on December 20, 2020, 11:19:59 AM
The WHO have issued a medical alert:

"The probability that a person who has a positive result (SARS-CoV-2 detected) is truly infected with SARS-CoV-2 decreases as positivity rate decreases, irrespective of the assay specificity. Therefore, healthcare providers are encouraged to take into consideration testing results along with clinical signs and symptoms, confirmed status of any contacts, etc.

Users of RT-PCR reagents should read the IFU (instructions for use) carefully to determine if manual adjustment of the PCR positivity threshold is necessary to account for any background noise which may lead to a specimen with a high cycle threshold (Ct) value result being interpreted as a positive result.  The design principle of RT-PCR means that for patients with high levels of circulating virus (viral load), relatively few cycles will be needed to detect virus and so the Ct value will be low. Conversely, when specimens return a high Ct value, it means that many cycles were required to detect virus. In some circumstances, the distinction between background noise and actual presence of the target virus is difficult to ascertain. Thus, the IFU will state how to interpret specimens at or near the limit for PCR positivity. In some cases, the IFU will state that the cut-off should be manually adjusted to ensure that specimens with high Ct values are not incorrectly assigned SARS-CoV-2 detected due to background noise."

If i'm not mistaken, that says it's all been a cockup

Quote from: blingo on December 20, 2020, 11:33:55 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on December 20, 2020, 11:19:59 AM
The WHO have issued a medical alert:

"The probability that a person who has a positive result (SARS-CoV-2 detected) is truly infected with SARS-CoV-2 decreases as positivity rate decreases, irrespective of the assay specificity. Therefore, healthcare providers are encouraged to take into consideration testing results along with clinical signs and symptoms, confirmed status of any contacts, etc.

Users of RT-PCR reagents should read the IFU (instructions for use) carefully to determine if manual adjustment of the PCR positivity threshold is necessary to account for any background noise which may lead to a specimen with a high cycle threshold (Ct) value result being interpreted as a positive result.  The design principle of RT-PCR means that for patients with high levels of circulating virus (viral load), relatively few cycles will be needed to detect virus and so the Ct value will be low. Conversely, when specimens return a high Ct value, it means that many cycles were required to detect virus. In some circumstances, the distinction between background noise and actual presence of the target virus is difficult to ascertain. Thus, the IFU will state how to interpret specimens at or near the limit for PCR positivity. In some cases, the IFU will state that the cut-off should be manually adjusted to ensure that specimens with high Ct values are not incorrectly assigned SARS-CoV-2 detected due to background noise."

If i'm not mistaken, that says it's all been a cockup

In a nutshell for the many tests that have been questioned by experts since PCR was adapted as the first testing regime.  In the UK, as an example, the Ct value for positivity has been regularly reported to be above 30 when that number has been recognised as the threshold for reliabilty.   

Here is Vincent Raccaniello's take on the UK's variant of the SARS-CoV-2 virus.  It is, unlike NERVTAG's advice to the UK Government, both measured and informative and suggests something I think we can all agree on we need a lot more of this year – good science.

He is a Higgins Professor in the Department of Microbiology and Immunology at Columbia University's College of Physicians and Surgeons. He is a co-author of a textbook on virology, Principles of Virology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC8ObD2W4Rk

Wasnt Professor Higgins in My Fair Lady?

Whilst I am awaiting my jab
my wife has made me a necklace, consisting of
two free range scotch eggs and some chips
which I wear on a regular basis and
so far so good...

Quote from: john dempsey on January 01, 2021, 02:30:54 PM
Whilst I am awaiting my jab
my wife has made me a necklace, consisting of
two free range scotch eggs and some chips
which I wear on a regular basis and
so far so good...

May I inquire if the chips are made from organic potatoes?

Just as an aside to the vaccine shots, comes a story from California this past week.

A Nurse got the first jab, 7 days later presented with Covid symptoms, and tested positive - not from the jab it appears.

Medical experts are stating that it can take 10-14 days for the body to create the required immune reaction from the first jab, and that will account for 50% protection, with the second injection given 21 days following the first which will raise the protection to 95%.

Quote from: Logicalman on January 01, 2021, 09:13:25 PM
Just as an aside to the vaccine shots, comes a story from California this past week.

A Nurse got the first jab, 7 days later presented with Covid symptoms, and tested positive - not from the jab it appears.

Medical experts are stating that it can take 10-14 days for the body to create the required immune reaction from the first jab, and that will account for 50% protection, with the second injection given 21 days following the first which will raise the protection to 95%.

Why did that even make the news?
Did the reporters over there think it was (a) 100% effective and (b) effective immediately?
:doh:

Quote from: Statto on January 01, 2021, 09:50:16 PM

Quote from: Logicalman on January 01, 2021, 09:13:25 PM
Just as an aside to the vaccine shots, comes a story from California this past week.

A Nurse got the first jab, 7 days later presented with Covid symptoms, and tested positive - not from the jab it appears.

Medical experts are stating that it can take 10-14 days for the body to create the required immune reaction from the first jab, and that will account for 50% protection, with the second injection given 21 days following the first which will raise the protection to 95%.

Why did that even make the news?
Did the reporters over there think it was (a) 100% effective and (b) effective immediately?
:doh:

It made the news because sensationalist negative stories sell newspapers and get clicks on news pages. One of the disappointing, yet unsurprising, aspects of this Covid drama is the BBC's participation in this sort of behaviour.

Quote from: The Old Count on January 02, 2021, 10:25:06 AM

Quote from: Statto on January 01, 2021, 09:50:16 PM

Quote from: Logicalman on January 01, 2021, 09:13:25 PM
Just as an aside to the vaccine shots, comes a story from California this past week.

A Nurse got the first jab, 7 days later presented with Covid symptoms, and tested positive - not from the jab it appears.

Medical experts are stating that it can take 10-14 days for the body to create the required immune reaction from the first jab, and that will account for 50% protection, with the second injection given 21 days following the first which will raise the protection to 95%.

Why did that even make the news?
Did the reporters over there think it was (a) 100% effective and (b) effective immediately?
:doh:

It made the news because sensationalist negative stories sell newspapers and get clicks on news pages. One of the disappointing, yet unsurprising, aspects of this Covid drama is the BBC's participation in this sort of behaviour.

Agreed 100%

Quote from: The Old Count on January 02, 2021, 10:25:06 AM

Quote from: Statto on January 01, 2021, 09:50:16 PM

Quote from: Logicalman on January 01, 2021, 09:13:25 PM
Just as an aside to the vaccine shots, comes a story from California this past week.

A Nurse got the first jab, 7 days later presented with Covid symptoms, and tested positive - not from the jab it appears.

Medical experts are stating that it can take 10-14 days for the body to create the required immune reaction from the first jab, and that will account for 50% protection, with the second injection given 21 days following the first which will raise the protection to 95%.

Why did that even make the news?
Did the reporters over there think it was (a) 100% effective and (b) effective immediately?
:doh:

It made the news because sensationalist negative stories sell newspapers and get clicks on news pages. One of the disappointing, yet unsurprising, aspects of this Covid drama is the BBC's participation in this sort of behaviour.

It made the news because, if you have the inoculation, it takes between 10 and 15 days to fully kick in and protect people. It's good thing to highlight because it's good information. They know it's a possible, people need to know that the possibility exits. 

Quote from: Statto on January 01, 2021, 09:50:16 PM

Quote from: Logicalman on January 01, 2021, 09:13:25 PM
Just as an aside to the vaccine shots, comes a story from California this past week.

A Nurse got the first jab, 7 days later presented with Covid symptoms, and tested positive - not from the jab it appears.

Medical experts are stating that it can take 10-14 days for the body to create the required immune reaction from the first jab, and that will account for 50% protection, with the second injection given 21 days following the first which will raise the protection to 95%.

Why did that even make the news?
Did the reporters over there think it was (a) 100% effective and (b) effective immediately?
:doh:

It made new simply because, especially in the US, and likely other countries, the information surrounding the effectiveness of the vaccine, has not been made totally clear, especially with the massive disinformation carried via SM.

Reinforcement of actual facts such as these often need to be repeated to fight against the negativity and often ignorance surrounding the whole issue of the virus and the vaccines.

Quote from: Logicalman on January 02, 2021, 12:34:20 PM

Quote from: Statto on January 01, 2021, 09:50:16 PM

Quote from: Logicalman on January 01, 2021, 09:13:25 PM
Just as an aside to the vaccine shots, comes a story from California this past week.

A Nurse got the first jab, 7 days later presented with Covid symptoms, and tested positive - not from the jab it appears.

Medical experts are stating that it can take 10-14 days for the body to create the required immune reaction from the first jab, and that will account for 50% protection, with the second injection given 21 days following the first which will raise the protection to 95%.

Why did that even make the news?
Did the reporters over there think it was (a) 100% effective and (b) effective immediately?
:doh:

It made new simply because, especially in the US, and likely other countries, the information surrounding the effectiveness of the vaccine, has not been made totally clear, especially with the massive disinformation carried via SM.

Reinforcement of actual facts such as these often need to be repeated to fight against the negativity and often ignorance surrounding the whole issue of the virus and the vaccines.

+1

This is a follow up video entitled 'Immune' by Prof Racaniello in his series of discussion with three experts on virology and immunology in a zoom setting. 

It covers criticism of his earlier video (linked above), the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine (one of the panel was recently given a jab), population (since 'herd' seems to now be a dirty word) immunity, how immunity/vaccines work in conjunction with population immunity, media misinformation, our immune systems in action and why seemingly poor systems do better against spiked protein attacks than seemingly healthier ones, PCR tests, and answering emailed questions from their wide audience of interested parties.  It is long (90 mins) and not for everyone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g9sFXXLJKo

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on December 17, 2020, 02:37:09 PM
Imagine being threatened with societal ostracization for not taking an experimental vaccine for a virus that has a ~+99% survival rate, when it's not even known whether the vaccine will prevent contagiousness.

Nobody should be ostracized for choosing not to take the vaccine. However, while the survival rate is very high, as you point out, the disease itself can be very debilitating and the long term effects are as yet unknown. I have a cousin in the UK who contracted the virus in late March and is a so-called long hauler who still suffers blinding headaches,fatigue, and nausea.

I asked the nurse who perioically takes my blood  if I would get the vacine as I had Covid in October. She said they would be vacinating people who already had it. Although I haven't read anything to that affect so still not sure if this is the case

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Had my second jab on Monday, told that my arm would ache more than the first one, which it did but fine now. Will make the point that nothing really changes in taking precautions as my wife is just 67 and I could still pass covid on if infected. A friend in Wimbledon, had his second appointment cancelled and is on the twelve week wait now but has been told his second vaccine jab could be different from the first. I assume this only happens if the original is out not available.

I am in my eighties and have had several letters and emails warning me to stay at home and shield as I am defined as clinically at risk. My wife is also in her eighties but 3 years younger than me and has had no shielding warnings.

As yet I have received no vaccine offer but my younger wife has been given options of a vaccine at Central London, Guildford, Bristol or Birmingham. The nearest to our home in Shepperton is Guildford , a round trip of some 30 miles.
Oh, we are warned that there are no toilets at Guildford so if we may need a pee we had best select one of the other sites.
Meanwhile we read in the media that we are not to travel far from home.

I have had my first Pfizer/BioNTech jab this morning courtesy of my GP surgery which has served me so well in the last twenty odd years in a very well organised operation where I saw at least twenty people being vaccinated every fifteen minutes (the resting period after the jab) or so.

Quote from: toshes mate on January 13, 2021, 11:58:47 AM
I have had my first Pfizer/BioNTech jab this morning courtesy of my GP surgery which has served me so well in the last twenty odd years in a very well organised operation where I saw at least twenty people being vaccinated every fifteen minutes (the resting period after the jab) or so.

Good effort... my Father-in-law is in his late 80s and has just had his 2nd jab.... he cannot wait to get back out and about.  Scarborough has a very high percentage of older people, and the local hospital is doing 8 people (cubicals) every 10 mins from 8am to 8pm.... not many people not turning up, which is great. They are also doing Hospital staff, Police, Fire fighters, Ambulance staff etc.... luckily quite a few people have volunteered to help also... driving older people to get their jabs.
Every town / City will have different processes and issues, but locally it seems to be going very well so far 👍🙏🤞  Good luck everyone COYW

Quote from: Berserker on January 03, 2021, 06:59:24 PM
I asked the nurse who perioically takes my blood  if I would get the vacine as I had Covid in October. She said they would be vacinating people who already had it. Although I haven't read anything to that affect so still not sure if this is the case

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

They are vaccinating everyone regardless of COVID-19 history but it does seem to be another postcode lottery dependent upon local service availability.  I hope all of you, especially those in vulnerable groups, get sorted soon because I was very surprised to get my jab offer so quickly but I do belong to a highly regarded GP practice with excellent staffing.

Im still very much in the im not getting injected camp. I honestly believe that no government can control a virus. I know it exists, my Aunt died of it two days ago, no amount of lockdown will stop this. It may delay it, but that is all. Herd immunity is the only way out of it.

It is strange because one 83 year old neighbour had his second jab on Friday and yet four other couples within fifty yards have not yet had their letters. I booked on Sunday without waiting for my letter and had my jab at Epsom Downs yesterday. My letter arrived on Monday.
Nonsuch House in Nonsuch Park is dealing with London patients and the GLC border is close to where I live.I have it on good authority that on one day last week 43 people failed to keep their appointments which is disgusting!

Quote from: blingo on January 13, 2021, 01:54:24 PM
Im still very much in the im not getting injected camp. I honestly believe that no government can control a virus. I know it exists, my Aunt died of it two days ago, no amount of lockdown will stop this. It may delay it, but that is all. Herd immunity is the only way out of it.

Have a chat with you're GP. Talk over the Pros and Cons (there are none).

My partner's mother is 91 and was offered the vaccine early on. She turned it down. Crazy. She's just been offered a free central heating installation worth £5000 under the government scheme and doesn't want that either as it would mean tidying up. It correlates absolutely.

As an aside, a friend who is by all other intents and purposes an intelligent bloke has something that he wants to get to us. He lives in Walthamstow, we're in Devon, and he wanted us to meet him in Bristol as he was on his way to Cheltenham. None of this is essential. With people being in denial like that no wonder it's spreading.

I see they are trialling the Vaccine Passport to be shown when entering various establishments going forward apparently.Good thing in my opinion may help people sitting on the fence that having a jab is in their interest.I have had covid but feel it is my civic duty to take the vaccine and would advise everyone to do so when they are asked.The only way out of this horrible situation in my opinion and it cant come quick enough.

Quote from: filham on January 13, 2021, 11:47:53 AM
I am in my eighties and have had several letters and emails warning me to stay at home and shield as I am defined as clinically at risk. My wife is also in her eighties but 3 years younger than me and has had no shielding warnings.

As yet I have received no vaccine offer but my younger wife has been given options of a vaccine at Central London, Guildford, Bristol or Birmingham. The nearest to our home in Shepperton is Guildford , a round trip of some 30 miles.
Oh, we are warned that there are no toilets at Guildford so if we may need a pee we had best select one of the other sites.
Meanwhile we read in the media that we are not to travel far from home.

If you go on Twitter the usual mob who've had an axe to grind with this government since June 2016 are now turning their attention to the fact the vaccine isn't being administered 24/7 ad claiming their 94-year-old grandmothers would gladly make their way to a vaccine venue at 3am if necessary. Then on here, complaints about the venue being 15 miles away and not having toilets. Just goes to show the govt cannot win.

Quote from: Fulham Tup North on January 13, 2021, 12:11:53 PM

Quote from: toshes mate on January 13, 2021, 11:58:47 AM
I have had my first Pfizer/BioNTech jab this morning courtesy of my GP surgery which has served me so well in the last twenty odd years in a very well organised operation where I saw at least twenty people being vaccinated every fifteen minutes (the resting period after the jab) or so.

Good effort... my Father-in-law is in his late 80s and has just had his 2nd jab.... he cannot wait to get back out and about.  Scarborough has a very high percentage of older people, and the local hospital is doing 8 people (cubicals) every 10 mins from 8am to 8pm.... not many people not turning up, which is great. They are also doing Hospital staff, Police, Fire fighters, Ambulance staff etc.... luckily quite a few people have volunteered to help also... driving older people to get their jabs.
Every town / City will have different processes and issues, but locally it seems to be going very well so far 👍🙏🤞  Good luck everyone COYW

I'm in Yorkshire too,(Wakefield)


, but the process here seems very hit and miss. We know some folk well over 80 with underlying health conditions who haven't been offered the jab and others just over 80 and in rude health who have. It doesn't seem to be going on age or on surname - just random. I shall be 80 on Jan 31st, so will I stay in the 75-80 group? If they haven't finished all the over 80s will I join them? Just as long as I don't fall in the crack between the two groups! Fingers crossed!

For those who are relying on Herd immunity, remember that those who get immunity through the vaccine are part of the herd so the more people who get it the quicker the herd will be "immune".

Quote from: mrmicawbers on January 13, 2021, 04:05:39 PM
I see they are trialling the Vaccine Passport to be shown when entering various establishments going forward apparently.Good thing in my opinion may help people sitting on the fence that having a jab is in their interest.I have had covid but feel it is my civic duty to take the vaccine and would advise everyone to do so when they are asked.The only way out of this horrible situation in my opinion and it cant come quick enough.

Contrasting information on this: today minister Zahawi denied that there were plans for it, yet it went out to tender a couple of weeks ago.

I've no axe to grind here, can see arguments either way, but something doesn't add up.

Quote from: Holders on January 13, 2021, 04:38:57 PM

Quote from: mrmicawbers on January 13, 2021, 04:05:39 PM
I see they are trialling the Vaccine Passport to be shown when entering various establishments going forward apparently.Good thing in my opinion may help people sitting on the fence that having a jab is in their interest.I have had covid but feel it is my civic duty to take the vaccine and would advise everyone to do so when they are asked.The only way out of this horrible situation in my opinion and it cant come quick enough.

Contrasting information on this: today minister Zahawi denied that there were plans for it, yet it went out to tender a couple of weeks ago.

I've no axe to grind here, can see arguments either way, but something doesn't add up.

It hasn't been taken off the table. The language has always been on the lines of "there are currently no plans for it".

I don't currently have any plans to go to the pub. But as soon as they re-open I'll definitely go there.

Quote from: Statto on January 13, 2021, 04:15:48 PM

Quote from: filham on January 13, 2021, 11:47:53 AM
I am in my eighties and have had several letters and emails warning me to stay at home and shield as I am defined as clinically at risk. My wife is also in her eighties but 3 years younger than me and has had no shielding warnings.

As yet I have received no vaccine offer but my younger wife has been given options of a vaccine at Central London, Guildford, Bristol or Birmingham. The nearest to our home in Shepperton is Guildford , a round trip of some 30 miles.
Oh, we are warned that there are no toilets at Guildford so if we may need a pee we had best select one of the other sites.
Meanwhile we read in the media that we are not to travel far from home.

If you go on Twitter the usual mob who've had an axe to grind with this government since June 2016 are now turning their attention to the fact the vaccine isn't being administered 24/7 ad claiming their 94-year-old grandmothers would gladly make their way to a vaccine venue at 3am if necessary. Then on here, complaints about the venue being 15 miles away and not having toilets. Just goes to show the govt cannot win.

Johnson said today that they're aiming for 24-hour rollout "as soon as possible". Good, they've responded to pressure there having previously said that there was "no
clamour" for it. As to travelling directly to and from a vaccination centre, that must unquestionably be a valid reason for travel. As to loos, many people would surely happily wet themselves to get a jab. Who's going to see at that time of night?

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on January 13, 2021, 04:45:27 PM

Quote from: Holders on January 13, 2021, 04:38:57 PM

Quote from: mrmicawbers on January 13, 2021, 04:05:39 PM
I see they are trialling the Vaccine Passport to be shown when entering various establishments going forward apparently.Good thing in my opinion may help people sitting on the fence that having a jab is in their interest.I have had covid but feel it is my civic duty to take the vaccine and would advise everyone to do so when they are asked.The only way out of this horrible situation in my opinion and it cant come quick enough.

Contrasting information on this: today minister Zahawi denied that there were plans for it, yet it went out to tender a couple of weeks ago.

I've no axe to grind here, can see arguments either way, but something doesn't add up.

It hasn't been taken off the table. The language has always been on the lines of "there are currently no plans for it".

I don't currently have any plans to go to the pub. But as soon as they re-open I'll definitely go there.

If you noted down the actual words that he used this morning, well and good. I'm not going to trawl through i-player over semantics.

Just a little bit more insight about how we may be close to achieving sterilizing immunity via vaccines and herd immunity via natural infection and that is why we are seeing the current fall in all the significant areas of SARS-CoV-2.    The main speaker - Paul Offit (top centre in the screen) – gives his opinion about where we are currently around the 35 to 40 minutes mark of the two hour video.   He also notes his belief that the variants of concern (e.g. South African variant) may also be sufficiently dealt with by vaccinated people and those who have already been infected with the virus before. 

There is quite a lot before this relating to the whys and wherefores of vaccination.

It's an altogether more nuanced and optimistic view than most outlets are currently giving us and all these guys are 'experts'. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54WDQYvvcCs

Quote from: Statto on January 13, 2021, 04:15:48 PM

Quote from: filham on January 13, 2021, 11:47:53 AM
I am in my eighties and have had several letters and emails warning me to stay at home and shield as I am defined as clinically at risk. My wife is also in her eighties but 3 years younger than me and has had no shielding warnings.

As yet I have received no vaccine offer but my younger wife has been given options of a vaccine at Central London, Guildford, Bristol or Birmingham. The nearest to our home in Shepperton is Guildford , a round trip of some 30 miles.
Oh, we are warned that there are no toilets at Guildford so if we may need a pee we had best select one of the other sites.
Meanwhile we read in the media that we are not to travel far from home.

If you go on Twitter the usual mob who've had an axe to grind with this government since June 2016 are now turning their attention to the fact the vaccine isn't being administered 24/7 ad claiming their 94-year-old grandmothers would gladly make their way to a vaccine venue at 3am if necessary. Then on here, complaints about the venue being 15 miles away and not having toilets. Just goes to show the govt cannot win.

Why do you use inflammatory language to describe people who disagree with the current government? I am sometimes in that camp but am definitely not part of a "mob".
You take every opportunity to have a pop at Sadie Khan (which you have every right to do) does that make you part of a Khan hating mob?

Had my jab on Saturday, headache most of Sunday morning and violently sick (1st time in about 15 years) 10pm Sunday night, was it due to side effects of the vaccine or the excitement of seeing Fulham win which was a real tonic? It wasn't due to drinking!!!!

Quote from: davew on February 16, 2021, 04:42:34 PM
Had my jab on Saturday, headache most of Sunday morning and violently sick (1st time in about 15 years) 10pm Sunday night, was it due to side effects of the vaccine or the excitement of seeing Fulham win which was a real tonic? It wasn't due to drinking!!!!

Dave, it's probably the effects of drinking after a Fulham win but anno domini means that you've forgotten about that.

I've got mine scheduled for Saturday late pm. If we win again I won't care how sick I am.

Quote from: Holders on February 16, 2021, 04:48:24 PM

Quote from: davew on February 16, 2021, 04:42:34 PM
Had my jab on Saturday, headache most of Sunday morning and violently sick (1st time in about 15 years) 10pm Sunday night, was it due to side effects of the vaccine or the excitement of seeing Fulham win which was a real tonic? It wasn't due to drinking!!!!

Dave, it's probably the effects of drinking after a Fulham win but anno domini means that you've forgotten about that.

I've got mine scheduled for Saturday late pm. If we win again I won't care how sick I am.

Good luck with your jab, could be 2 more wins before then!

Quote from: flyingfish on December 14, 2020, 10:12:59 AM
Interesting. I was an outpatient at St Georges last week and I walked past a vaccine clinic set up.

Do you mind if I ask - are you n a group identified as 'vulnerable'? Just wondering how this is all working as my in-laws in their 90s (but not out patients anywhere or in a care home) haven;t heard anything yet.

All over 90's should have heard some time ago and have been advised to contact their medical centre if they haven't, something has gone wrong.

Something has gone very wrong - can you contact their doctor or local health centre ? Unless they have medical conditions which mean they shouldn't have the vaccine they should have it

My vaccine Astra Zeneca was given to me last Friday and there have been no after affects. That was the first jab.  I've seen on the tv that the French are suggesting that if like me you have already had COVID -19 you may not need a second dose. Let's wait and see. Several other friends are also fine following their jab but my twin brother was mildly ill for 24 hours

I am 65 and had my first pfizer jab last Thursday.

This was arranged through my GP but last Friday I recieved a letter from the NHS inviting me to also make an appointment for my first jab.

It did say further down the letter that if I had already made an appointment or had the jab arranged through my GP to ignore this letter.

I am fit, no medical issues and no medication but I assume that living in Lincoln, a sparsely populated part of the country they got the 70 plus done ahead of schedule and moved on to the next group i.e. me.

I would also say that since moving from the south 6 years ago, places like Lincoln may not benefit from the resources of the big cities but things tend to get done more efficiently here and people can be relied on.

Hi Bill, what part of Lincoln do you live in? When the pubs open we should meet to celebrate, we may even know each other already. Stranger things happen.

Quote from: gang on February 17, 2021, 09:50:38 AM
Hi Bill, what part of Lincoln do you live in? When the pubs open we should meet to celebrate, we may even know each other already. Stranger things happen.

I'm on Burton Road going out of town on the RH side.
Past the barracks but before Queen E road.

Happy to meet up when safe to do so for a pint.

Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on February 16, 2021, 11:27:51 PM
I assume that living in Lincoln, a sparsely populated part of the country they got the 70 plus done ahead of schedule and moved on to the next group i.e. me.

I would also say that since moving from the south 6 years ago, places like Lincoln may not benefit from the resources of the big cities but things tend to get done more efficiently here and people can be relied on.

I have in-laws in Suffolk (just outside Ipswich) and I understand that they have made very good progress on vaccinations.  My mother-in-law had her first jab in mid-December (and so managed to get her second after three weeks, before they changed the protocol).  My brother and sister-in-law (both in the 55-59 group) have also had their first dose this week.

Hoping that they get round to us here in London.  The Scout Hut in Putney (our local centre) is just up the road from me and I regularly see people queueing for vaccinations.

Several sources of research suggest obesity has a major effect on infection rates by respiratory viruses.  Countries where populations are normally well within BMI (Body Mass Index) optimums of less than 30 and greater than 15 (for adults) seem to be healthier and less likely to be infected. 

Looks like there may be diet incentives coming from the government sometime soon and whilst not replacing vaccination could be a much healthier way to herd immunity in the future. 

Quote from: Andy S on February 16, 2021, 10:31:45 PM
My vaccine Astra Zeneca was given to me last Friday and there have been no after affects. That was the first jab.  I've seen on the tv that the French are suggesting that if like me you have already had COVID -19 you may not need a second dose. Let's wait and see. Several other friends are also fine following their jab but my twin brother was mildly ill for 24 hours

Got my first yesterday, Pfizer, at the local grocery store pharmacy. No real side-effects, other than injection site tenderness and a slight aching (feels like bruising) at the top of the arm injected. The only thing that made me feel sick was watching the cheating spuds play us afterwards!

Second one in three weeks' time.

Quote from: toshes mate on March 05, 2021, 09:17:23 AM
Several sources of research suggest obesity has a major effect on infection rates by respiratory viruses.  Countries where populations are normally well within BMI (Body Mass Index) optimums of less than 30 and greater than 15 (for adults) seem to be healthier and less likely to be infected. 

Looks like there may be diet incentives coming from the government sometime soon and whilst not replacing vaccination could be a much healthier way to herd immunity in the future. 

That was pretty obvious from day 1 surely

Quote from: Statto on March 05, 2021, 03:15:40 PM

Quote from: toshes mate on March 05, 2021, 09:17:23 AM
Several sources of research suggest obesity has a major effect on infection rates by respiratory viruses.  Countries where populations are normally well within BMI (Body Mass Index) optimums of less than 30 and greater than 15 (for adults) seem to be healthier and less likely to be infected. 

Looks like there may be diet incentives coming from the government sometime soon and whilst not replacing vaccination could be a much healthier way to herd immunity in the future. 

That was pretty obvious from day 1 surely

Fat chance

I had mine three weeks ago today so that means I should be protected quite well.... I hope so.

With luck i will have the second jab in toime to go to cyprus.. I will not go but the jab will be in time.
I will hapopy to go for a walk on Brighton beach, we haven't been anywhere for a year now!

Quote from: Statto on March 05, 2021, 03:15:40 PM

Quote from: toshes mate on March 05, 2021, 09:17:23 AM
Several sources of research suggest obesity has a major effect on infection rates by respiratory viruses.  Countries where populations are normally well within BMI (Body Mass Index) optimums of less than 30 and greater than 15 (for adults) seem to be healthier and less likely to be infected. 

Looks like there may be diet incentives coming from the government sometime soon and whilst not replacing vaccination could be a much healthier way to herd immunity in the future. 

That was pretty obvious from day 1 surely

Yes it would seem so and it is interesting that the World Obesity Foundation used WHO's World Obesity Day both last year and this to signal that if you are overweight you will become more susceptible to seasonal 'flu than simply via age alone.  The recent research paper by John Hopkins Coronavirus Observation Centre on obesity may therefore be placed in the virtue signalling category.   However, there are research papers which have concentrated on weight alone and it is a risk similar to 'tobacco causes early death' advice.   

Even without exercise younger children tend to breathe shorter and faster than adolescents and adults because their lung capacity is low and when infected children very rarely get serious Covid-19 symptoms.  This may suggest that SARS-CoV-2 is transmitted more readily if your breathing is deeper because your weight is causing you to work harder than your lungs are capable of sustaining even in modest activity.   Just what additional effort is added via wearing a mask appears to be an unknown.     

Quote from: ALG01 on March 05, 2021, 03:29:51 PM
I had mine three weeks ago today so that means I should be protected quite well.... I hope so.

With luck i will have the second jab in toime to go to cyprus.. I will not go but the jab will be in time.
I will hapopy to go for a walk on Brighton beach, we haven't been anywhere for a year now!

Brighton beach, ah yes I have vague memories of that. Seriously though, it will be wonderful to be able to enjoy just a bit more of our lovely country. I think I've walked and cycled every single street in my local area!

I'm gp5 and had mine

Here is a paper (preprint) that deals with the SARS-CoV-2 variants and, specifically, T-Cells.   Of note is that the T-Cells of import in the study occur from natural immunity and/or vaccination with the Moderna and Pfizer/BioNTech vaccines (which featured in the study).   This suggests that evidence of strong T-Cell behaviour previously seen in healthy immune systems may be just as significant as antibodies in reducing the severity of infection if not more so.   The comments section on the paper is interesting.
 
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.27.433180v1.full

Going to get my vaccination today in Ramsgate although I live in Whitstable and that's the nearest centre to me.I have had covid and last week had my plasma taken for the antibodies in my system.This week I received a letter saying that I did not have enough in my system to give them to sick coronavirus patients,although the plasma can still be used.I would assume from this that without the vaccine I could catch it again.So anyone out there who thinks they are immune as they have already it might need to have a rethink.

Has anyone changed their minds about the vaccine with what's going on with blood clots?
I'm still going to wait.

Quote from: blingo on March 15, 2021, 08:28:13 PM
Has anyone changed their minds about the vaccine with what's going on with blood clots?
I'm still going to wait.

No, I've just been able to book for tomorrow.

Quote from: blingo on March 15, 2021, 08:28:13 PM
Has anyone changed their minds about the vaccine with what's going on with blood clots?
I'm still going to wait.

Europe has although I can't help thinking that this is a convenient excuse for their mismanagement in signing contracts for vaccines early on.

Quote from: blingo on March 15, 2021, 08:28:13 PM
Has anyone changed their minds about the vaccine with what's going on with blood clots?
I'm still going to wait.

No. If you look at the data the incidence of blood clots among the vaccinated and non-vaccinated is no different.

Quote from: cookieg on March 15, 2021, 10:08:43 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 15, 2021, 08:28:13 PM
Has anyone changed their minds about the vaccine with what's going on with blood clots?
I'm still going to wait.

Europe has although I can't help thinking that this is a convenient excuse for their mismanagement in signing contracts for vaccines early on.

You could be right... looking at the WHO data,  40 people out of 10 million, numbers are less than you would expect during a non vaccine year... it is all quite suspicious??

The European Union mucked up their purchase of vaccines, are jealous of the way the UK has tackled vaccination and they are short of supplies. They are looking for excuses to delay things until they receive enough stock to vaccinate their citizens at a closer rate to the UK.

Quote from: blingo on March 15, 2021, 08:28:13 PM
Has anyone changed their minds about the vaccine with what's going on with blood clots?
I'm still going to wait.

No, and you should get yours.

Quote from: blingo on March 15, 2021, 08:28:13 PM
Has anyone changed their minds about the vaccine with what's going on with blood clots?
I'm still going to wait.

Had mine 4 weeks ago and looking forward to receiving the second dose. If some EU countries are possibly unduly worrying about the AZ vaccine then that should mean that there is more available for the UK and other countries in the short term. Who really knows if it is safe or not, you take the vaccine and you take your chances!

Quote from: sarnian on March 15, 2021, 11:09:24 PM
The European Union mucked up their purchase of vaccines, are jealous of the way the UK has tackled vaccination and they are short of supplies. They are looking for excuses to delay things until they receive enough stock to vaccinate their citizens at a closer rate to the UK.

They will be miles behind us by then, I agree about their failings in procuring the vaccine but not your other points.

The issue is to how to maintain public confidence in a brand that's received at least four waves of criticism/misperception: 1. "less effective" due to differing trial methodologies and limited testing in older age groups, 2. contract/supply issues, 3. it's UK research (our image is tarnished in the EU) and cheaper than the US alternatives so "can't be as good", 4.blood clots.

It could be argued "more for us, then" but that's extremely short-sighted as all populations need maximum rapid vaccination for a host or reasons.

Do countries press on regardless and perhaps increase jab-resistance (which is stronger on the continent anyway) or suspend use probably unnecessarily and then re-launch with the concern dispelled? On balance, I can understand the latter approach. The EMA and WHO have reviewed the data and are satisfied so it's just window- dressing.

Anyway, if anyone's worried about getting the AstraZeneca vaccine because 40 people out of 17m have reported a (most likely unrelated) clot do not read the leaflet in a box of Paracetamol!

Quote from: sarnian on March 15, 2021, 11:09:24 PM
The European Union mucked up their purchase of vaccines, are jealous of the way the UK has tackled vaccination and they are short of supplies. They are looking for excuses to delay things until they receive enough stock to vaccinate their citizens at a closer rate to the UK.

On your last point, it's in the UK's strong interest that they do.

This is typical politics. The EU and big EU countries within should be ashamed of themselves.  Get the bloody vaccine and be safe to yourself and others.  If you refuse, when restrictions are lifted, continue to stay at home.

Quote from: FulhamStu on March 16, 2021, 10:53:15 AM
This is typical politics. The EU and big EU countries within should be ashamed of themselves.  Get the bloody vaccine and be safe to yourself and others.  If you refuse, when restrictions are lifted, continue to stay at home.

It's not the EU: individual countries make their own decisions, in the same way as the UK did when it arranged its own separate procurement, approved AZ early and started jabbing in December - whilst we were still subject to EMA rules.

I agree that once the hoop has been jumped through* (see above) all countries need to get on with it as rapidly as possible.

*EMA press conference at 1.00pm GMT.

As I understand it the EU members agreed to Brussels undertaking the procurement of vaccines on behalf of all member states last year.  That is why we have seen what we have seen by way of the slanders directed at the UK by ... Brussels.  But I could be wrong since the main arms of our MSM are still smarting over Brexit.

Quote from: cookieg on March 15, 2021, 10:08:43 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 15, 2021, 08:28:13 PM
Has anyone changed their minds about the vaccine with what's going on with blood clots?
I'm still going to wait.

Europe has although I can't help thinking that this is a convenient excuse for their mismanagement in signing contracts for vaccines early on.

+1

Just heard on BBC Politics programme that the Pfizer vaccine and the Astra jab have only a tiny differenece in blood clot stats.

I'm 48 and live in North London and had an "estimate" of my first jab to be in July.

I just received an invite by text (from my GPs number) to book my first jab for this Saturday (20th March), which I booked straight away. So rather impressed with that.

I didnt seem to be able to book another day, and only had about 12 time slots to choose from, so maybe they are giving folk like me a chance to get one early on a first come first served basis.

My flatmate had both her jabs before the end of January, she works in a care home and they were probably going to have to close it if she and some of her colleagues didn't get it at the time. Fair play to her she's working 6 days a week in there.

Quote from: Steeeeeeeeeed on March 16, 2021, 01:04:45 PM
I'm 48 and live in North London and had an "estimate" of my first jab to be in July.

I just received an invite by text (from my GPs number) to book my first jab for this Saturday (20th March), which I booked straight away. So rather impressed with that.

I didnt seem to be able to book another day, and only had about 12 time slots to choose from, so maybe they are giving folk like me a chance to get one early on a first come first served basis.

My flatmate had both her jabs before the end of January, she works in a care home and they were probably going to have to close it if she and some of her colleagues didn't get it at the time. Fair play to her she's working 6 days a week in there.

Good for you. The main website is inviting people 55 and over so maybe your part of the country is ahead of the game. My partner (56) had hers yesterday and she got in as soon as it was opened up to her age-group.

Received my second Pfizer today :)

Quote from: Holders on March 16, 2021, 01:13:38 PM

Quote from: Steeeeeeeeeed on March 16, 2021, 01:04:45 PM
I'm 48 and live in North London and had an "estimate" of my first jab to be in July.

I just received an invite by text (from my GPs number) to book my first jab for this Saturday (20th March), which I booked straight away. So rather impressed with that.

I didnt seem to be able to book another day, and only had about 12 time slots to choose from, so maybe they are giving folk like me a chance to get one early on a first come first served basis.

My flatmate had both her jabs before the end of January, she works in a care home and they were probably going to have to close it if she and some of her colleagues didn't get it at the time. Fair play to her she's working 6 days a week in there.

Good for you. The main website is inviting people 55 and over so maybe your part of the country is ahead of the game. My partner (56) had hers yesterday and she got in as soon as it was opened up to her age-group.

Accurate estimates for the UK as a whole are available here: https://www.omnicalculator.com/health/vaccine-queue-uk

I've been checking every week or so and the queue time estimate is improving all the time. 

I'm 50 (nearly 51!) and live in Kent - so expect to be called in the next couple of weeks.

Even in January, North London was a week or so ahead of my area (I know because my Dad lives in London and my Mum in Kent and my Dad received his first jab earlier) - maybe even more so now....

Quote from: Dodgin on March 16, 2021, 12:37:44 PM
Just heard on BBC Politics programme that the Pfizer vaccine and the Astra jab have only a tiny differenece in blood clot stats.

After 10 million doses, Astra Zeneca have reported 28 cases of blood clots.

Pfizer: 11 million doses, 25 cases.

But how do they know that the clots are as a result of the jabs . That percentage looks to me like it could be a natural figure that they may have got a blood clot regardless of the vaccine . But of course I don't know.

Also Covid is prothrombotic and clots are the most common major complication of Covid-19.

We know a lot of people have or had Covid-19 without realising it.. often around the time of the first vaccine as it was the peak of the pandemic etc.

Quote from: bobbo on March 16, 2021, 04:02:31 PM
But how do they know that the clots are as a result of the jabs . That percentage looks to me like it could be a natural figure that they may have got a blood clot regardless of the vaccine . But of course I don't know.

They don't. These raw figures don't take that into account and it would be interesting to know the underlying incidence. Another variable would be the demographics that the respective jabs were given to. So many variables but no cause for alarm certainly.

Perhaps the EMA will come up with some of those answers when they report - supposedly Thursday.

Quote from: Milo on March 16, 2021, 01:55:09 PM
Received my second Pfizer today :)

Got my first AZ jab today, very impressed with the set-up.  My wife requested the Pfizer version but was told they only had supplies to administer them for the second jab.  Can't say I'm fussed which I was given.

Quote from: SP on March 16, 2021, 04:38:19 PM

Quote from: Milo on March 16, 2021, 01:55:09 PM
Received my second Pfizer today :)

Got my first AZ jab today, very impressed with the set-up.  My wife requested the Pfizer version but was told they only had supplies to administer them for the second jab.  Can't say I'm fussed which I was given.

My father had AZ and said it was like a conveyer belt. Unlike Pfizer where you hang around with a cup of tea for 15 minutes incase you keel over and die!

Quote from: Milo on March 16, 2021, 01:55:09 PM
Received my second Pfizer today :)

With you, Milo. Going for my second (Pfizer) this afternoon (-:

Quote from: bobbo on March 16, 2021, 04:02:31 PM
But how do they know that the clots are as a result of the jabs . That percentage looks to me like it could be a natural figure that they may have got a blood clot regardless of the vaccine . But of course I don't know.

The current data actually shows the incidence off blood clots to be slightly lower among vaccinated people than among the non-vaccinated.

just my take but some countires are either very ignorant or playing politicsOR our governement is keeping information from us.

But my understannding is that the rate of blood clots in people that had the jab and those that didn't is about like for like. however, i am not always trustful of this sort of data.. I had the astra z, and am happy to have the second dose.

Quote from: bobbo on March 16, 2021, 04:02:31 PM
But how do they know that the clots are as a result of the jabs . That percentage looks to me like it could be a natural figure that they may have got a blood clot regardless of the vaccine . But of course I don't know.

And they don't either, don't worry!

Quote from: ALG01 on March 16, 2021, 04:50:22 PM
just my take but some countires are either very ignorant or playing politicsOR our governement is keeping information from us.

But my understannding is that the rate of blood clots in people that had the jab and those that didn't is about like for like. however, i am not always trustful of this sort of data.. I had the astra z, and am happy to have the second dose.

Me too, what date did you have your first dose as I want to check you are still on here when I have mine!

You all seem to be missing the point about AZ and blod clots. It's not just about blod clots but an extremely rare condition with blood clots combined with low platelet counts and internal bleeding. Which means that the normal treatment for blod clots can't be used because it would increase the bleeding and kill the patient.

Blod clots alone are not occuring at a higher rate than usual but blod clots + low platelets and bleeding is considerably higher because it's such an extremely rare combination. A connection with AZ seems very likely as more and more countries are looking into their cases and find this same lethal combination of both blod clots and low platelet counts.

(I'm not a vaccine sceptic BTW and will happily get the first one I'm offered, the risk is still far lower than covid itself).

By how much is it lower? 99.7% of people who get covid recover.

I think the whole EU led by the Germans are politicising the AZ vaccine because they've  f..... up their whole vaccination programme.  The fact is you stand a better chance of blood clots if you smoke or are giving birth.  There may well be odd case but the risk is so small it's not worth worrying about.  I'm 80 and couldn't wait to get my first jab.  Both my wife and I had no ill affects whatsoever.  My second one is at the end of the month.  At the end of the day its a personal choice take it or leave it

Quote from: blingo on March 16, 2021, 08:18:54 PM
By how much is it lower? 99.7% of people who get covid recover.

Unless we start seeing far more deaths following vaccinations you can probably add a couple of decimals to that figure. All vaccines have side effects and the evidence suggests that we've seen deaths from at least AstraZenaca but the risk is still FAR lower than covid.

It seems I've developed 'Covid Toe' - that's a new one to me!

Quote from: SP on March 16, 2021, 10:44:33 PM
It seems I've developed 'Covid Toe' - that's a new one to me!

It's related to foot and mouth lol

Well Sorrow in answer to your post, the French and Italians have caved in and are now approving AZ vaccine

Quote from: S.F.Sorrow on March 16, 2021, 09:14:18 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 16, 2021, 08:18:54 PM
By how much is it lower? 99.7% of people who get covid recover.

Unless we start seeing far more deaths following vaccinations you can probably add a couple of decimals to that figure. All vaccines have side effects and the evidence suggests that we've seen deaths from at least AstraZenaca but the risk is still FAR lower than covid.

I don't see any serious evidence to date that we have seen deaths "from AstraZeneca".  A handful of people (single figures out of tens of millions worldwide) have died after being innoculated with the Astrazeneca vaccine. Since the vaccination programmes in each country began, hundreds of thousands of people have died from natural causes, and inevitably some will die shortly after being vaccinated.  I'll agree that it is not possible to deny categorically the very faint possibility that vaccination was the cause of the few deaths to date, but it seems far more likely to be a coincidence than the cause.  I think you wrote in an earlier message that the risk of death from Covid (exceedingly low) outweighed the risk of death from vaccination (microscopically low or non-existent), and I agree with that.

It sounds like the format is somewhat different here in Northern Ireland.

I had my first dose last week (Pfizer BioNTech) and my second one is scheduled for May 20th. 

I'm 38 with no underlying conditions but I'm technically a carer so I was (semi-surprisingly) able to book it.  I actually felt pretty bad about what felt like jumping the queue, but I figured the rationale behind it was that if I go down with the disease there's someone (two people actually) who are left in a lot of trouble as a result, so it felt like the right move.

It seems that they've now closed that loophole though as they requested absolutely zero proof that you qualified as a carer, you just checked a box and that was that. 

There was barely a single person in the vaccination centre who looked over 50 on the day I went, so they must have had a shocking uptake of people exploiting the system.  One woman mentioned that she, her husband and daughter had all been vaccinated on the same day which sounded a bit suss.. I know of someone else who decided they qualified as a carer on the grounds that their daughter's boyfriend's father hurt his back a couple of years ago.  This was despite barely knowing the man, having not so much as even given him a bunch of grapes while he was in the hospital much less been involved in his rehabilitation AND living abroad at the same time?! 

Sounds pretty convincing to me..

Quote from: Plodder on March 17, 2021, 12:07:49 AM

Quote from: S.F.Sorrow on March 16, 2021, 09:14:18 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 16, 2021, 08:18:54 PM
By how much is it lower? 99.7% of people who get covid recover.

Unless we start seeing far more deaths following vaccinations you can probably add a couple of decimals to that figure. All vaccines have side effects and the evidence suggests that we've seen deaths from at least AstraZenaca but the risk is still FAR lower than covid.

I don't see any serious evidence to date that we have seen deaths "from AstraZeneca".  A handful of people (single figures out of tens of millions worldwide) have died after being innoculated with the Astrazeneca vaccine. Since the vaccination programmes in each country began, hundreds of thousands of people have died from natural causes, and inevitably some will die shortly after being vaccinated.  I'll agree that it is not possible to deny categorically the very faint possibility that vaccination was the cause of the few deaths to date, but it seems far more likely to be a coincidence than the cause.  I think you wrote in an earlier message that the risk of death from Covid (exceedingly low) outweighed the risk of death from vaccination (microscopically low or non-existent), and I agree with that.

Not just in an earlier post but in the one you quoted.

There may not be conclusive evidence that Astrazeneca has has caused deaths but with a growing number of reports of people developing extremely rare and life threatening symptoms shortly after being innoculated with Astrazeneca it's starting to look very likely. We're not just talking about blod clots here but blot clots combined with low platelet counts and bleeding. People HAVE died from this and the growing number of reported cases strongly suggest a link with Astrazeneca.

Still, like I said before: I'm not a vaccine sceptic and I will gladly get the vaccine I'm offered. The risk from ANY of the available vaccines is far lower than covid itself. But at this stage I would personally prefer any other than Astrazeneca if I had a choice (which I don't). Not just because of potentially (but extremely rare) more serious side effects than the other vaccines but because az is reported to be less effective (or possibly not effective at all) against the South African variant. Which means getting another vaccine later with potentially more side effects. But then again, that's probably a very likely scenario with ANY of the current vaccines.

We may be missing the point here. We have left the EU, there were problems with supply. The vaccine is British. Do the sums, its really not very difficult.

Masks? They have stopped nothing at all, but they have given governments a lovely little income stream, whilst screwing poor families out of the little cash they have.

Sorry people but all of this stinks to me.

Quote from: blingo on March 17, 2021, 09:57:55 AM
We may be missing the point here. We have left the EU, there were problems with supply. The vaccine is British. Do the sums, its really not very difficult.

Masks? They have stopped nothing at all, but they have given governments a lovely little income stream, whilst screwing poor families out of the little cash they have.

Sorry people but all of this stinks to me.

Agreed

It seems to me there are a few posters who don't want to take it.Fair enough but let everyone who does want to get vaccinated and get the country back to some normality get on with it.We don't need your anti tax and sentiments thanks.Europe are playing politics with their citizens lives purely because they have messed up badly.Funny I was a remainer
thank God we got out.

I never ever thought that one day I would walk into a bank wearing a mask.

The biggest reason this was a large concern is because covid has caused a lot of deaths through blood clots, and the rare vaccine deaths have been blood clots too, because of this link and 2 people dying, who one had been administered the jab 6 days before death and one 11 days. One in Germany and another in Austria.
I found one report that stated it was the same batch but I dont fully trust the source and nothing else seems to say this other than Austria returned a batch,
AstraZ themselves released a statement saying over their data they found no higher chance of blood clots, actually seemed to find less than what would be expected from a normal group.

But as someone mentioned earlier AstraZ have shown they will talk up their products, lost an incredibly large lawsuit for recommending use of their products for ailments and illnesses that the FDA havent approved.

In other words the FDA hadnt tested an agreed the medication actually did the job the company claimed it did.

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on March 17, 2021, 07:39:28 PM
I never ever thought that one day I would walk into a bank wearing a mask.

Only in my dreams.
But they'd be a getaway car outside

Quote from: blingo on March 17, 2021, 09:57:55 AM
We may be missing the point here. We have left the EU, there were problems with supply. The vaccine is British. Do the sums, its really not very difficult.

Masks? They have stopped nothing at all, but they have given governments a lovely little income stream, whilst screwing poor families out of the little cash they have.

Sorry people but all of this stinks to me.

How do you know that masks stopped nothing?, if I'm talking with you face to face with a covering over my nose and mouth it's going to stop me spewing stuff all over you, whether it can stop a virus I don't know but it must be an aid, after all why do Dr's & nurses wear masks when treating patients?

They are completely different masks Alfie.  Did the enforcement of wearing masks stop the third wave? No. In gib we have to wear masks in certain areas but not others. We have fared no better or worse than anywhere else. Conclusion... The masks made no difference.

It is a part of the medical profession's code 'to do the patient no harm', and the use of masks is professionally accepted in high risk of infection situations.  The risk of transmitting any coronavirus is largely unknown even in the current pandemic according to the WHO and we have had zoonotic coronaviruses circulating for a very much longer time than when they were first identified almost a century ago.  At one end of the spectrum of expert and/or political 'beliefs' an 'infected' surface may pose a risk whilst at the other end we can find those who suggest infections are almost certainly passed via coughs and sneezes in close proximity to others because only then is there sufficient viral load to cause an infection.   Who is right and who is wrong is, IMO, a bit of a lottery at the moment. 

Quote from: JoelH5 on March 18, 2021, 12:50:13 PM

Quote from: S.F.Sorrow on March 16, 2021, 09:11:49 PM

Quote from: shepperton white on March 16, 2021, 08:26:10 PM
I think the whole EU led by the Germans are politicising the AZ vaccine because they've  f..... up their whole vaccination programme.  The fact is you stand a better chance of blood clots if you smoke or are giving birth.  There may well be odd case but the risk is so small it's not worth worrying about.  I'm 80 and couldn't wait to get my first jab.  Both my wife and I had no ill affects whatsoever.  My second one is at the end of the month.  At the end of the day its a personal choice take it or leave it

You may get blod clots from smoking or giving birth but you won't get the extremely serious combination of blod clots, low platelet counts and internal bleeding. This is what they are finding with AZ patients (some of them have died) and there seems to be a connection. This is a very serious condition that has not been documented with Pfizer og any of the other vaccines. The risk still seems to be very low though.

wow. This post contains so many falsehoods. I work in Pharma. Firstly, they aren't "finding" this as you have said. In fact the opposite. Secondly there does not "seem to be a connection". We don't work with "seems" in pharma. We have clinical trials. These have shown there is no risk of blood clots. The amount of patients experiencing blood clots is much less prevalent than would be experienced in the general population.

ADMINS - This is a clear, clear spreading of false information which could put lives at risk by persuading others not to get the vaccine. The users post should be deleted

make you right Joe,if people want conspiracy theories they should stick to Facebook and the like.Seems to me some people would be happy stuck in a permanent lockdown situation.the Probably hate the thought of the rest of the population enjoying life again.Very sad lives they must live or not live.

Quote from: Milo on March 16, 2021, 04:39:42 PM

Quote from: SP on March 16, 2021, 04:38:19 PM

Quote from: Milo on March 16, 2021, 01:55:09 PM
Received my second Pfizer today :)

Got my first AZ jab today, very impressed with the set-up.  My wife requested the Pfizer version but was told they only had supplies to administer them for the second jab.  Can't say I'm fussed which I was given.

My father had AZ and said it was like a conveyer belt. Unlike Pfizer where you hang around with a cup of tea for 15 minutes incase you keel over and die!

Interesting - I've had the Pfizer one and had to wait 10 mins after before leaving (although no one policed this and it was up to you when you left)

Have a friend who lives in NL and he thinks their Govt has jumped at the chance of holding back the AZ vaccine as they had promised XXX millions of vaccinations by a certain date - they were way off hitting targets so will now use the AZ hold as the reason for not hitting the promised target delivery - no blame on their Govt then

Quote from: blingo on March 18, 2021, 10:47:04 AM
They are completely different masks Alfie.  Did the enforcement of wearing masks stop the third wave? No. In gib we have to wear masks in certain areas but not others. We have fared no better or worse than anywhere else. Conclusion... The masks made no difference.

I completely understand but, if everyone were to wear a mask and it still spread then that is conclusive proof, but you have thousands of people who refuse to wear a mask, who will continue to spread the virus if they have it. Personally I wear a mask whenever I leave the house, as I have copd, diabetes, high BP, I just feel a little safer.

I wear a mask because I have CDO - to the uninitiated that's OCD but in alphabetical order.

I was interested today to hear it mooted that the UK and EU are expected to hit around 70% of the population vaccinated around the same time - both doses that is. I fear, however that this may relate to those offered the vaccine as the take up rate in some countries is so much lower. It's just as important for us in the UK that our neighbours have a high and rapid take up.

Quote from: Holders on March 18, 2021, 06:14:21 PM
I wear a mask because I have CDO - to the uninitiated that's OCD but in alphabetical order.

Love it

Quote from: Holders on March 18, 2021, 06:18:21 PM
I was interested today to hear it mooted that the UK and EU are expected to hit around 70% of the population vaccinated around the same time - both doses that is. It's the rollout that differs and I can see the reasoning in getting one dose in as many as possible as quickly as possible. Pity about the delay in deliveries from India, however.

If they get really funky,surely we could withdraw them actually manufacturing our vaccine.Not saying we should and getting down to their level.We are letting them manufacture at non profit and is seriously much cheaper by miles compared to the rest.

Have had to remove some posts due to spreading of misinformation.

Let's stick to proven facts, rather than claiming anecdotal evidence as absolute truths.

The AZ vaccine has been administered to the over 50s in my area this week which was welcomed.  However, everyone who I know had it is suffering from hangover like symptoms and a headache.  One lady has missed work sick, I hope our batch was ok?

Common to have flu like symptoms after the vaccine.

The product literature states 52% will have a headache and 44% myalgia (muscle aching/fatigue).

Quote from: Holders on March 18, 2021, 06:14:21 PM
I wear a mask because I have CDO - to the uninitiated that's OCD but in alphabetical order.

I just cannot stop laughing at this - brilliant truly brilliant!

I had no after effects after the vaccine - but had some negative reaction to the flu vaccine I had earlier. There will always be a small percentage that have a reaction but make no mistake getting vaccinated saves lives

https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/005534-2021 (https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/005534-2021)

The Gov UK website today published a tender for a 2 year long Covid-19 advertising campaign commencing April 1st.

I really would like to believe it's an April Fool's prank.

Quote from: HV71 on March 18, 2021, 08:47:24 PM

Quote from: Holders on March 18, 2021, 06:14:21 PM
I wear a mask because I have CDO - to the uninitiated that's OCD but in alphabetical order.

I just cannot stop laughing at this - brilliant truly brilliant!

What really stresses me is my membership of the DNA - the national association of dyslexics.

Quote from: Holders on March 19, 2021, 12:04:49 AM

Quote from: HV71 on March 18, 2021, 08:47:24 PM

Quote from: Holders on March 18, 2021, 06:14:21 PM
I wear a mask because I have CDO - to the uninitiated that's OCD but in alphabetical order.

I just cannot stop laughing at this - brilliant truly brilliant!

What really stresses me is my membership of the DNA - the national association of dyslexics.

AGBN.

That is bang out of order.

Interesting video but very long and extremely taxing on my solitary brain cell which reveals there is so much we do not really know about coronaviruses and why they change the ways they do.  Just before the half hour mark Susan Weiss and other clever people conclude that nature is way ahead of us, seemingly suggesting it is just not possible for SARS-CoV-2 to be 'designed' in a lab.   The good news about that is, if true, SARS-CoV-2 isn't a monster.   

My question would be 'why on earth are we vaccinating the whole population if we do not need to because, like most 'flu and cold viruses, almost all of us just bat SARS-CoV-2 away'?  The vulnerable groups I am fine with vaccination on demand, but others, I just don't see why it is considered a health wise thing to do and all the talk about vaccine passports is especially sinister IMO.

(TWiV 734)
https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/

Getting my 2nd jab tomorrow, I don't know whether it will be making it any safer for me, I have COPD Diabetes &high blood pressure, but I can only hope.

The passports and the control it will give governments is totalitarianism. They will control everyone, and every move we make, whether we like it or not. There will no longer be any freedom of choice unless the government decides that you can have it. I never thought that our fathers and forefathers fought for our liberty in two world wars to arrive at this sorry state of affairs. You wont be able to even fart without permission. All of this for a virus in which 99.7% of people recover.

Gibraltar has very little restrictions on masks and as from today (Gib is as I write COVID FREE), all shops and restaurants are open and there are no curfews. We live next to Spain with mega restrictions and yet we have managed to keep figures low. Ninety four deaths mainly elderly residents. Common sense prevailed here, although 30,000 of the 32,000 population are now vaccinated.  However the vaccination is NOT the reason we are covid free, the reason is that common sense prevailed. Remember, the vaccine does not stop you catching it or spreading it.

Blin.....fed up of all of this baloney.....go

Quote from: blingo on March 27, 2021, 10:31:58 AM
The passports and the control it will give governments is totalitarianism. They will control everyone, and every move we make, whether we like it or not. There will no longer be any freedom of choice unless the government decides that you can have it. I never thought that our fathers and forefathers fought for our liberty in two world wars to arrive at this sorry state of affairs. You wont be able to even fart without permission. All of this for a virus in which 99.7% of people recover.

Gibraltar has very little restrictions on masks and as from today (Gib is as I write COVID FREE), all shops and restaurants are open and there are no curfews. We live next to Spain with mega restrictions and yet we have managed to keep figures low. Ninety four deaths mainly elderly residents. Common sense prevailed here, although 30,000 of the 32,000 population are now vaccinated.  However the vaccination is NOT the reason we are covid free, the reason is that common sense prevailed. Remember, the vaccine does not stop you catching it or spreading it.

Blin.....fed up of all of this baloney.....go

Agreed, i left the UK 7 years ago and haven't looked backed

DON'T DRIVE YOUR CAR.


1 in 103
While the chance of a car accident is relatively high, the chances of dying in a car crash are thankfully, comparatively lower. According to the National Safety Council, the chances of dying from a motor vehicle crash is 1 in 103.


WATCH YOU DON'T CATCH FLU.
Influenza and pneumonia death

Number of deaths: 49,783
Deaths per 100,000 population: 15.2
Cause of death rank: 9
Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality Data (2019) via CDC WONDER


HOPE YOU ARE NOT DIABETIC LIKE ME

Number of deaths: 87,647
Deaths per 100,000 population: 26.7
Cause of death rank: 7

Quote from: blingo on March 27, 2021, 10:31:58 AM
The passports and the control it will give governments is totalitarianism. They will control everyone, and every move we make, whether we like it or not. There will no longer be any freedom of choice unless the government decides that you can have it. I never thought that our fathers and forefathers fought for our liberty in two world wars to arrive at this sorry state of affairs. You wont be able to even fart without permission. All of this for a virus in which 99.7% of people recover.

For much of the past year we've been bombarded with what are essentially marketing campaigns containing phrases such as "When everyone's had the jab everything can return to normal", and yet here we are with over half the adult population on the receiving end of these jabs and there's been a clear and obvious shift in this narrative. We're now being told "When everyone's had the jab don't expect everything to return to normal", the government are tendering for 2-year-long Covid advertising campaign(s) (https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/005534-2021), and reportedly planning "booster" jabs for the over-70s by September. It began as "3 weeks to flatten the curve and protect the NHS". Whether this is a genuine health crisis or an authoritarian conspiracy it should be apparent to most by now that we're being led via a carrot dangling from a stick.

Quote from: blingo on March 27, 2021, 10:31:58 AM
Gibraltar has very little restrictions on masks and as from today (Gib is as I write COVID FREE), all shops and restaurants are open and there are no curfews. We live next to Spain with mega restrictions and yet we have managed to keep figures low. Ninety four deaths mainly elderly residents. Common sense prevailed here, although 30,000 of the 32,000 population are now vaccinated.  However the vaccination is NOT the reason we are covid free, the reason is that common sense prevailed. Remember, the vaccine does not stop you catching it or spreading it.

Blin.....fed up of all of this baloney.....go

I find Gibraltar's statistics unusual. Throughout the whole pandemic up until the jab was rolled out on January 10th it had reported 16 Covid deaths. Over the course of the next 30 days this toll skyrocketed up to 83. Gibraltar now finds itself #1 by a significant margin in the nations league table of Covid deaths per capita.

As for whether the jab is saving lives, I'm aware of the news stories where experts have said "clear evidence of increased antibodies/t-cells in recipients" or "clear drop in hospitalisations / deaths / positive tests in recipients", yet I don't see a clear correlation in the overall mortality figures. UK & Israel have jabbed far more per-capita than the big European countries, and yet whether you look at raw Covid deaths per-capita or excess-mortality % the UK has massively overshadowed European countries throughout much of winter, while Israel has only performed narrowly better than Germany (despite frequently jabbing 10 times as many people per-capita). Granted there are a multitude of factors which can hinder the compatibility of comparing different countries at any given point in time.

Quote from: shepperton white on March 16, 2021, 11:31:01 PM
Well Sorrow in answer to your post, the French and Italians have caved in and are now approving AZ vaccine

It's not really a matter of "caving in" but assessing risk vs benefit and in this case the risk is considered far lower than the benefit. This principle applies for ALL the vaccines, not just AZ.

In response to a previous post that accused me of lying, here's a scientific explanation of the VERY rare occurances of low platelet counts causing blod clots where the evidence strongly suggests a link with AZ:

https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/sciencebrief/vaccine-induced-prothrombotic-immune-thrombocytopenia-vipit-following-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccination/

This is an extremely serious (and very rare) condition. People have died from this shortly after vaccination with AZ. This has not (to my knowledge) been reported with any of the other vaccines. This is the reason why some countries still have AZ on suspension or only give it to older people.

But like I said before, ALL vaccines have potential serious (but very rare) side effects. It's all about risk vs benefit and in this case the evidence suggests that the benefits by far outweight the risks.

I will accept whatever vaccine I'm offered but I understand why some countries are looking into this, especially as some smaller countries are seeing FAR higher number of this serious condition than others. There could be a number of reasons for this. Statistic anomalies in smaller populations, a bad batch, genetic differences between countries or maybe some national health services have better/worse routines for reporting side effects than others.

It's also interesting to see that the suspected serious side effects with AZ mostly seem to affect young women but so far no one can explain why or even be 100% sure if it's connected to AZ (although the evidence strongly suggests a link).

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on March 27, 2021, 11:43:30 AM

Quote from: blingo on March 27, 2021, 10:31:58 AM
The passports and the control it will give governments is totalitarianism. They will control everyone, and every move we make, whether we like it or not. There will no longer be any freedom of choice unless the government decides that you can have it. I never thought that our fathers and forefathers fought for our liberty in two world wars to arrive at this sorry state of affairs. You wont be able to even fart without permission. All of this for a virus in which 99.7% of people recover.

For much of the past year we've been bombarded with what are essentially marketing campaigns containing phrases such as "When everyone's had the jab everything can return to normal", and yet here we are with over half the adult population on the receiving end of these jabs and there's been a clear and obvious shift in this narrative. We're now being told "When everyone's had the jab don't expect everything to return to normal", the government are tendering for 2-year-long Covid advertising campaign(s) (https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/005534-2021), and reportedly planning "booster" jabs for the over-70s by September. It began as "3 weeks to flatten the curve and protect the NHS". Whether this is a genuine health crisis or an authoritarian conspiracy it should be apparent to most by now that we're being led via a carrot dangling from a stick.

Quote from: blingo on March 27, 2021, 10:31:58 AM
Gibraltar has very little restrictions on masks and as from today (Gib is as I write COVID FREE), all shops and restaurants are open and there are no curfews. We live next to Spain with mega restrictions and yet we have managed to keep figures low. Ninety four deaths mainly elderly residents. Common sense prevailed here, although 30,000 of the 32,000 population are now vaccinated.  However the vaccination is NOT the reason we are covid free, the reason is that common sense prevailed. Remember, the vaccine does not stop you catching it or spreading it.

Blin.....fed up of all of this baloney.....go

I find Gibraltar's statistics unusual. Throughout the whole pandemic up until the jab was rolled out on January 10th it had reported 16 Covid deaths. Over the course of the next 30 days this toll skyrocketed up to 83. Gibraltar now finds itself #1 by a significant margin in the nations league table of Covid deaths per capita.

As for whether the jab is saving lives, I'm aware of the news stories where experts have said "clear evidence of increased antibodies/t-cells in recipients" or "clear drop in hospitalisations / deaths / positive tests in recipients", yet I don't see a clear correlation in the overall mortality figures. UK & Israel have jabbed far more per-capita than the big European countries, and yet whether you look at raw Covid deaths per-capita or excess-mortality % the UK has massively overshadowed European countries throughout much of winter, while Israel has only performed narrowly better than Germany (despite frequently jabbing 10 times as many people per-capita). Granted there are a multitude of factors which can hinder the compatibility of comparing different countries at any given point in time.

I don't think so, but still, your figures are wrong. We have had 94 deaths, inflicted by Spaniards coming over. We THEN had a mini lockdown and are now one of the only, if not THE ONLY country in the world that is covid free.

Quote from: blingo on March 27, 2021, 12:18:03 PM

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on March 27, 2021, 11:43:30 AM
I find Gibraltar's statistics unusual. Throughout the whole pandemic up until the jab was rolled out on January 10th it had reported 16 Covid deaths. Over the course of the next 30 days this toll skyrocketed up to 83. Gibraltar now finds itself #1 by a significant margin in the nations league table of Covid deaths per capita.

As for whether the jab is saving lives, I'm aware of the news stories where experts have said "clear evidence of increased antibodies/t-cells in recipients" or "clear drop in hospitalisations / deaths / positive tests in recipients", yet I don't see a clear correlation in the overall mortality figures. UK & Israel have jabbed far more per-capita than the big European countries, and yet whether you look at raw Covid deaths per-capita or excess-mortality % the UK has massively overshadowed European countries throughout much of winter, while Israel has only performed narrowly better than Germany (despite frequently jabbing 10 times as many people per-capita). Granted there are a multitude of factors which can hinder the compatibility of comparing different countries at any given point in time.

I don't think so, but still, your figures are wrong. We have had 94 deaths, inflicted by Spaniards coming over. We THEN had a mini lockdown and are now one of the only, if not THE ONLY country in the world that is covid free.

83 deaths as of February 10th, to be clear.

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on March 27, 2021, 12:30:34 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 27, 2021, 12:18:03 PM

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on March 27, 2021, 11:43:30 AM
I find Gibraltar's statistics unusual. Throughout the whole pandemic up until the jab was rolled out on January 10th it had reported 16 Covid deaths. Over the course of the next 30 days this toll skyrocketed up to 83. Gibraltar now finds itself #1 by a significant margin in the nations league table of Covid deaths per capita.

As for whether the jab is saving lives, I'm aware of the news stories where experts have said "clear evidence of increased antibodies/t-cells in recipients" or "clear drop in hospitalisations / deaths / positive tests in recipients", yet I don't see a clear correlation in the overall mortality figures. UK & Israel have jabbed far more per-capita than the big European countries, and yet whether you look at raw Covid deaths per-capita or excess-mortality % the UK has massively overshadowed European countries throughout much of winter, while Israel has only performed narrowly better than Germany (despite frequently jabbing 10 times as many people per-capita). Granted there are a multitude of factors which can hinder the compatibility of comparing different countries at any given point in time.

I don't think so, but still, your figures are wrong. We have had 94 deaths, inflicted by Spaniards coming over. We THEN had a mini lockdown and are now one of the only, if not THE ONLY country in the world that is covid free.

83 deaths as of February 10th, to be clear.

Feb 10th there were 85 deaths mainly in care homes where it swept through like fire as it has in every care home everywhere.

I know for a fact that every one on this thread will die of something.

The real mystery is why we all live the way we do and support systems that have let us down for generations.

But we all do.  :005:

Quote from: Lighthouse on March 27, 2021, 12:41:30 PM
I know for a fact that every one on this thread will die of something.

The real mystery is why we all live the way we do and support systems that have let us down for generations.

But we all do.  :005:

Good to see you posting  :54: :54: :54:

Right at the very beginnings of the epidemic research was showing T-Cell reactivity to SARS-CoV-2 in almost all Covid-19 symptom positive (by anecdote) patients.   The same has been seen in people vaccinated with a 'flu jab since that is what they are designed to do.  The problem may be that people started talking 'antibodies' in the T-Cell discussions and seemed to get rather confused about the efficacy of either or both in immune system responses to a coronavirus.  You could argue that at the time the experts were looking at the dark side and ignoring the lighter shades. 

The virologists on the TWiV panel discussed immune responses back last Spring which suggested that people with less responsive, in their words 'almost lazy', immune systems fared better than those with 'on a knife edge' immune systems.  The latter seemed more likely to over respond although the data couldn't determine why.   I am hoping that any inquiry into or investigation of the UK's handling of the virus will look at why we didn't make use of the many anti-viral drugs already available (but not stockpiled) as prophylactics (also discussed in the TWiV video I posted earlier today).     We were caught with our pants down and that is where the main focus needs to shine although I wouldn't guess there will be any excitement over what was exposed, more likely much laughter long and loud and a lot of sadness about those who needlessly died.  IMO.

Quote from: blingo on March 27, 2021, 12:34:27 PM

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on March 27, 2021, 12:30:34 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 27, 2021, 12:18:03 PM

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on March 27, 2021, 11:43:30 AM
I find Gibraltar's statistics unusual. Throughout the whole pandemic up until the jab was rolled out on January 10th it had reported 16 Covid deaths. Over the course of the next 30 days this toll skyrocketed up to 83. Gibraltar now finds itself #1 by a significant margin in the nations league table of Covid deaths per capita.

As for whether the jab is saving lives, I'm aware of the news stories where experts have said "clear evidence of increased antibodies/t-cells in recipients" or "clear drop in hospitalisations / deaths / positive tests in recipients", yet I don't see a clear correlation in the overall mortality figures. UK & Israel have jabbed far more per-capita than the big European countries, and yet whether you look at raw Covid deaths per-capita or excess-mortality % the UK has massively overshadowed European countries throughout much of winter, while Israel has only performed narrowly better than Germany (despite frequently jabbing 10 times as many people per-capita). Granted there are a multitude of factors which can hinder the compatibility of comparing different countries at any given point in time.

I don't think so, but still, your figures are wrong. We have had 94 deaths, inflicted by Spaniards coming over. We THEN had a mini lockdown and are now one of the only, if not THE ONLY country in the world that is covid free.

83 deaths as of February 10th, to be clear.

Feb 10th there were 85 deaths mainly in care homes where it swept through like fire as it has in every care home everywhere.

To be clear again I'm not attempting to cast judgement on Gibraltar. What I find unusual is the timing of that surge in deaths in relation to the jab rollout. If that coincided with a surge of incoming travel from Spain that could very well have been a factor, but we're nonetheless told this jab is supposed to be providing protection.

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/nine-covid-19-deaths-exmouth-5156936 (https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/nine-covid-19-deaths-exmouth-5156936)

This is a care home which had reportedly not suffered any Covid cases throughout the entire pandemic by the time the jab was rolled out to all of its residents in January. Yet it is sadly reported that between the first detection of a Covid case in February and March 12th the home has lost nearly a 3rd of its residents.

Mike there was a spike in infections due to spaniards coming over. No ones fault. Unfortunately it got into our care homes and the majority of the mortalities are from them. That includes an aunt of mine who had been there for fifteen years with Alzheimers and the covid killed her in three days. No ones fault but sad for those affected. We have to accept that we can not stop a virus. It really is nature's way of rebalancing the scales. Old and weak die, the young and fit do not. No offence taken in anything you have posted my friend.

In looking at transmission events, Jayanta Bhattacharya, a Professor of Medicine at Stanford University has stated:

"The scientific evidence now strongly suggests that COVID-19 infected individuals who are asymptomatic are more than an order of magnitude less likely to spread the disease to even close contacts than symptomatic COVID-19 patients. A meta-analysis of 54 studies from around the world found that within households – where none of the safeguards that restaurants are required to apply are typically applied – symptomatic patients passed on the disease to household members in 18 per cent of instances, while asymptomatic patients passed on the disease to household members in 0.7 per cent of instances. A separate, smaller meta-analysis similarly found that asymptomatic patients are much less likely to infect others than symptomatic patients.

"Asymptomatic individuals are an order of magnitude less likely to infect others than symptomatic individuals, even in intimate settings such as people living in the same household where people are much less likely to follow social distancing and masking practices that they follow outside the household. Spread of the disease in less intimate settings by asymptomatic individuals – including religious services, in-person restaurant visits, gyms, and other public settings – are likely to be even less likely than in the household."

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on March 27, 2021, 01:04:07 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 27, 2021, 12:34:27 PM

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on March 27, 2021, 12:30:34 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 27, 2021, 12:18:03 PM

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on March 27, 2021, 11:43:30 AM
I find Gibraltar's statistics unusual. Throughout the whole pandemic up until the jab was rolled out on January 10th it had reported 16 Covid deaths. Over the course of the next 30 days this toll skyrocketed up to 83. Gibraltar now finds itself #1 by a significant margin in the nations league table of Covid deaths per capita.

As for whether the jab is saving lives, I'm aware of the news stories where experts have said "clear evidence of increased antibodies/t-cells in recipients" or "clear drop in hospitalisations / deaths / positive tests in recipients", yet I don't see a clear correlation in the overall mortality figures. UK & Israel have jabbed far more per-capita than the big European countries, and yet whether you look at raw Covid deaths per-capita or excess-mortality % the UK has massively overshadowed European countries throughout much of winter, while Israel has only performed narrowly better than Germany (despite frequently jabbing 10 times as many people per-capita). Granted there are a multitude of factors which can hinder the compatibility of comparing different countries at any given point in time.

I don't think so, but still, your figures are wrong. We have had 94 deaths, inflicted by Spaniards coming over. We THEN had a mini lockdown and are now one of the only, if not THE ONLY country in the world that is covid free.

83 deaths as of February 10th, to be clear.

Feb 10th there were 85 deaths mainly in care homes where it swept through like fire as it has in every care home everywhere.

To be clear again I'm not attempting to cast judgement on Gibraltar. What I find unusual is the timing of that surge in deaths in relation to the jab rollout. If that coincided with a surge of incoming travel from Spain that could very well have been a factor, but we're nonetheless told this jab is supposed to be providing protection.

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/nine-covid-19-deaths-exmouth-5156936 (https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/nine-covid-19-deaths-exmouth-5156936)

This is a care home which had reportedly not suffered any Covid cases throughout the entire pandemic by the time the jab was rolled out to all of its residents in January. Yet it is sadly reported that between the first detection of a Covid case in February and March 12th the home has lost nearly a 3rd of its residents.

This is a good point that has not been properly addressed so far as I'm aware and I follow the local news. The only suggestion that I've seen is that they hadn't been vaccinated long enough to build up immunity or were old so it didn't work as well. Not adequate explanations and then there's the question of how it got in.

I believe it was reported on Friday that police had arrested two members of the care home staff on suspicion of wilful neglect.  A report (Telegraph?) also suggested a number of care home staff had tested positive.  It should be noted that vaccination does not guarantee safety either from infection, ability to infect, illness or fatality as blingo stated earlier.   Had the care home staff and residents all been vaccinated and 'immunity safe by time expired since vaccination' would the same incident have been possible?  It is a discussion point at the very least.

Quote from: toshes mate on March 28, 2021, 01:07:47 PM
I believe it was reported on Friday that police had arrested two members of the care home staff on suspicion of wilful neglect.  A report (Telegraph?) also suggested a number of care home staff had tested positive.  It should be noted that vaccination does not guarantee safety either from infection, ability to infect, illness or fatality as blingo stated earlier.   Had the care home staff and residents all been vaccinated and 'immunity safe by time expired since vaccination' would the same incident have been possible?  It is a discussion point at the very least.

I missed that Friday report. All of this is the more shocking as they'd avoided infection up to then.

The last point is the key and bears deep investigation for its wider relevance.

Quote from: toshes mate on March 28, 2021, 01:07:47 PM
I believe it was reported on Friday that police had arrested two members of the care home staff on suspicion of wilful neglect.  A report (Telegraph?) also suggested a number of care home staff had tested positive.  It should be noted that vaccination does not guarantee safety either from infection, ability to infect, illness or fatality as blingo stated earlier.   Had the care home staff and residents all been vaccinated and 'immunity safe by time expired since vaccination' would the same incident have been possible?  It is a discussion point at the very least.

Quote from: Holders on March 28, 2021, 01:37:49 PM
I missed that Friday report. All of this is the more shocking as they'd avoided infection up to then.

The care home being investigated by police is Holmsley Care Home. The article was primarily reporting on Brandon House, a different care home.

Quote from: MikeTheCubed on March 28, 2021, 02:48:40 PM

Quote from: toshes mate on March 28, 2021, 01:07:47 PM
I believe it was reported on Friday that police had arrested two members of the care home staff on suspicion of wilful neglect.  A report (Telegraph?) also suggested a number of care home staff had tested positive.  It should be noted that vaccination does not guarantee safety either from infection, ability to infect, illness or fatality as blingo stated earlier.   Had the care home staff and residents all been vaccinated and 'immunity safe by time expired since vaccination' would the same incident have been possible?  It is a discussion point at the very least.

Quote from: Holders on March 28, 2021, 01:37:49 PM
I missed that Friday report. All of this is the more shocking as they'd avoided infection up to then.

The care home being investigated by police is Holmsley Care Home. The article was primarily reporting on Brandon House, a different care home.

Holmsley, Sidmouth not Brandon, Exmouth - thanks for the clarification. Certainly the senior staff at Brandon seemed gutted it had got in after their clean bill earlier. I imagine the police involvement is unauthorised contact not permitted under the regime but had missed that report.

Here in Georgia USA the vaccine is now available to anyone over the age of 16.  This is due to a good portion of the population in this state not willing to get the vaccine.  Sad in my view but good for my wife and me.  The wife got her first jab today and I will be getting my tomorrow, today for most reading this.  Really looking forward to getting my shot.   :yay:

Quote from: love4ffc on March 29, 2021, 12:15:26 AM
Here in Georgia USA the vaccine is now available to anyone over the age of 16.  This is due to a good portion of the population in this state not willing to get the vaccine.  Sad in my view but good for my wife and me.  The wife got her first jab today and I will be getting my tomorrow, today for most reading this.  Really looking forward to getting my shot.   :yay:

Good for you but regrettable overall. What do you put it down to and is the resistance in any particular demographic or grouping?

Which vaccine is it in the US?

Quote from: Milo on March 29, 2021, 12:37:12 PM
Which vaccine is it in the US?

Pfizer, Moderna and the J&J 1 dose

Quote from: Holders on March 29, 2021, 07:17:12 AM

Quote from: love4ffc on March 29, 2021, 12:15:26 AM
Here in Georgia USA the vaccine is now available to anyone over the age of 16.  This is due to a good portion of the population in this state not willing to get the vaccine.  Sad in my view but good for my wife and me.  The wife got her first jab today and I will be getting my tomorrow, today for most reading this.  Really looking forward to getting my shot.   :yay:

Good for you but regrettable overall. What do you put it down to and is the resistance in any particular demographic or grouping?

Poorer, minority communities so far have the lowest vaccination rates. Also, a recent survey found that 46% of male Republican voters said they were not planning to get vaccinated.

Quote from: Holders on December 14, 2020, 11:16:31 AM

Quote from: Twig on December 14, 2020, 11:14:30 AM
My wife and I are in category 5 and can't wait to get it. It's not just important for our protection, we both also see it as a social responsibility.

THIS.

Absolutely.

Quote from: cottage expat on March 29, 2021, 05:27:20 PM

Quote from: Holders on March 29, 2021, 07:17:12 AM

Quote from: love4ffc on March 29, 2021, 12:15:26 AM
Here in Georgia USA the vaccine is now available to anyone over the age of 16.  This is due to a good portion of the population in this state not willing to get the vaccine.  Sad in my view but good for my wife and me.  The wife got her first jab today and I will be getting my tomorrow, today for most reading this.  Really looking forward to getting my shot.   :yay:

Good for you but regrettable overall. What do you put it down to and is the resistance in any particular demographic or grouping?

Poorer, minority communities so far have the lowest vaccination rates. Also, a recent survey found that 46% of male Republican voters said they were not planning to get vaccinated.

Pity about the former, not surprising about the latter.

Quote from: love4ffc on March 29, 2021, 12:15:26 AM
Here in Georgia USA the vaccine is now available to anyone over the age of 16.  This is due to a good portion of the population in this state not willing to get the vaccine.  Sad in my view but good for my wife and me.  The wife got her first jab today and I will be getting my tomorrow, today for most reading this.  Really looking forward to getting my shot.   :yay:

Just got my second Moderna jab last Friday.

No noticeable side-effects for either outside of injection-site soreness.

Got my second jab yesterday as did my wife. Had the AZ one. no ill effects whatsoever. Recommend everyone to have whichever one they are offered. Just the peace of mind makes it worth it. And its free.

Still waiting for our second jabs. We had the Pfizer one and I sense the supply has dried up a bit so goodness knows when we will be offered our second jabs.  But I endorse what others are saying when its offered TAKE IT!

Did you not get the appointment for the second when you booked the first? Mine's on May 9th - seems ages.

Had our first phyzer jab 10weeks ago, eagerly awaiting notification for 2nd jab. No side effects and we are totally convinced that the more people vacinated the safer we all are.

Quote from: filham on March 30, 2021, 11:26:37 AM
Had our first phyzer jab 10weeks ago, eagerly awaiting notification for 2nd jab. No side effects and we are totally convinced that the more people vacinated the safer we all are.

Quite right - worldwide.

Quote from: Holders on March 30, 2021, 10:57:58 AM
Did you not get the appointment for the second when you booked the first? Mine's on May 9th - seems ages.

What's the spacing between first and second jabs there then? Is that for the AstraZeneca shot?

I still maintain that there is no need to vaccinate the entire population for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate. Governments and the WHO have brainwashed the majority into believing that the vaccine is the answer to everything and there are many many arguments against. Blingo still not happy about taking the jab.

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 12:39:48 PM
I still maintain that there is no need to vaccinate the entire population for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate. Governments and the WHO have brainwashed the majority into believing that the vaccine is the answer to everything and there are many many arguments against. Blingo still not happy about taking the jab.

to each their own. I see it like the flu shot, which most of us have received. Additionally, not being vaccinated against the upcoming strain changes is what I wouldn't be excited about. So I will get the poke.

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 12:39:48 PM
I still maintain that there is no need to vaccinate the entire population for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate. Governments and the WHO have brainwashed the majority into believing that the vaccine is the answer to everything and there are many many arguments against. Blingo still not happy about taking the jab.
/quote]
Try tilling that to families who have lost loved ones or people who are suffering long covid. Personally I would rather not run the risk of being 1 of the 0.3 percent .Selfish perhaps but thats me.

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 12:39:48 PM
I still maintain that there is no need to vaccinate the entire population for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate. Governments and the WHO have brainwashed the majority into believing that the vaccine is the answer to everything and there are many many arguments against. Blingo still not happy about taking the jab.

Up to you Bring,but let the rest us get the economy up and running.If you don't think it's not worth taking have a look at France and the effect of not having a jab and many French people being anti vaxxers.

I have been affected so I know. However, how many under 50s have died? Has the compulsory wearing of masks worked? All I see is governments controlling people's lives and airlines controlling whether or not you can fly. Who has the right to take people's freedom away in this day and age? Watch how, as time goes by the governments report improvements in the pandemic as economies break down to unsustainable levels. Personal thoughts are that governments screwed up big time and don't know which way to turn now to get out of it. It exists, it's a serious strain of flu but there have been worse and we have survived. Taking the vaccine won't stop you getting it or passing it on. Still too many unanswered questions for blin..... Not at all convinced.... go.

Quote from: Twig on March 30, 2021, 10:45:04 AM
Still waiting for our second jabs. We had the Pfizer one and I sense the supply has dried up a bit so goodness knows when we will be offered our second jabs.  But I endorse what others are saying when its offered TAKE IT!

Exactly the same place - I was vaccinated first ( Pfizer) and don't have a date for my second. The wife however had ( AZ ) and has her second date booked

Quote from: Logicalman on March 30, 2021, 12:20:48 PM

Quote from: Holders on March 30, 2021, 10:57:58 AM
Did you not get the appointment for the second when you booked the first? Mine's on May 9th - seems ages.

What's the spacing between first and second jabs there then? Is that for the AstraZeneca shot?

Sorry for the delay responding been out all day. Yes, that was AZ, booked both dates online at the same time.

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 12:39:48 PM
I still maintain that there is no need to vaccinate the entire population for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate. Governments and the WHO have brainwashed the majority into believing that the vaccine is the answer to everything and there are many many arguments against. Blingo still not happy about taking the jab.

It's not just about the recovery rate though and that's not why you vaccinate people (it's also more like 97% because lots of people are suffering long term complications). If you stop the virus' ability to effectively spread by immunising people then you reduce the chance it can mutate and become more lethal, or reduce the chance of people catching it and passing it on so that it circulates at a level that causes problems through the whole country. By all means remain anti-vax but the proof is in the pudding that with so many people vaccinated in the UK, look how the infection and death rate is now significantly below the rest of Europe and tell me that it doesn't work

Quote from: Holders on March 30, 2021, 10:57:58 AM
Did you not get the appointment for the second when you booked the first? Mine's on May 9th - seems ages.

Not for Pfizer you don't. This vaccine has such difficult logistics challenges that they can't predict exactly when second doses will be available. You usually get a short notice instruction to turn up for a second jab as and when it suddenly becomes locally available.
I'm not complaining, lucky to get the first jab and will move heaven and earth to make myself available for my second (and that is despite being scheduled for a surgical procedure next week). I said on a previous post that I regard it as a social duty and nothing has changed my mind.

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 12:39:48 PM
I still maintain that there is no need to vaccinate the entire population for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate. Governments and the WHO have brainwashed the majority into believing that the vaccine is the answer to everything and there are many many arguments against. Blingo still not happy about taking the jab.

Blingo, there is none so blind........ Sad.

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 03:58:42 PM
I have been affected so I know. However, how many under 50s have died? Has the compulsory wearing of masks worked? All I see is governments controlling people's lives and airlines controlling whether or not you can fly. Who has the right to take people's freedom away in this day and age? Watch how, as time goes by the governments report improvements in the pandemic as economies break down to unsustainable levels. Personal thoughts are that governments screwed up big time and don't know which way to turn now to get out of it. It exists, it's a serious strain of flu but there have been worse and we have survived. Taking the vaccine won't stop you getting it or passing it on. Still too many unanswered questions for blin..... Not at all convinced.... go.

Most under 50's don't die BUT they do pass it onto the over 50's who do die
Mask wearing worked in parts of Asia where it has always been the norm - here it was introduced too late to control the spread but has probably reduced the spread in indoor settings
No one is taking away your freedom but there will be restrictions to give freedom to the majority, you will still be free to choose not to be vaccinated and you will have to accept our freedom to disassociate with you.
Taking vaccine stops the most vulnerable dying, that is the point and the least vulnerable from passing it onto them
The unanswered question is - if this was a sinking ship would you wait to see if you drown or climb aboard a life boat.

BUT please feel free to continue with your beliefs and accept that the majority might want to restrict your freedom to infect them

In the UK, giving a date for the booster jab depend on the clinic not the vaccine.

Some clinics give second date with or straight after first others give a number of weeks before it and contact you later

I went to UCLH in London - they said 10 weeks when I had the first jab.

When I got a text to give booster date, with about two weeks notice, it was for 9 weeks later with an option to change it later date if I needed to

A friend who had the same first vaccine at a different clinic on the same date, was told 12 weeks and he is still waiting to be told the date for his booster jab.

Quote from: Roberty on March 31, 2021, 05:19:20 AM

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 03:58:42 PM
I have been affected so I know. However, how many under 50s have died? Has the compulsory wearing of masks worked? All I see is governments controlling people's lives and airlines controlling whether or not you can fly. Who has the right to take people's freedom away in this day and age? Watch how, as time goes by the governments report improvements in the pandemic as economies break down to unsustainable levels. Personal thoughts are that governments screwed up big time and don't know which way to turn now to get out of it. It exists, it's a serious strain of flu but there have been worse and we have survived. Taking the vaccine won't stop you getting it or passing it on. Still too many unanswered questions for blin..... Not at all convinced.... go.

Most under 50's don't die BUT they do pass it onto the over 50's who do die
Mask wearing worked in parts of Asia where it has always been the norm - here it was introduced too late to control the spread but has probably reduced the spread in indoor settings
No one is taking away your freedom but there will be restrictions to give freedom to the majority, you will still be free to choose not to be vaccinated and you will have to accept our freedom to disassociate with you.
Taking vaccine stops the most vulnerable dying, that is the point and the least vulnerable from passing it onto them
The unanswered question is - if this was a sinking ship would you wait to see if you drown or climb aboard a life boat.

BUT please feel free to continue with your beliefs and accept that the majority might want to restrict your freedom to infect them

It's Blingo's right to jump in and see if he can swim but that doesn't pass it on to anyone else.

It's the pool of those who don't get vaccinated where mutations would most likely emerge so however "comforting" the death rate might be for one's own age group, it makes total sense to persuade as many as possible to get vaccinated. Even the complacent mostly have parents, grandparents or friends to perhaps think about in a moment of consideration for others. I see no possible reason for reusing the vaccine (without valid medical reason), except to test whether one survives or not.

I don't do the lottery myself.

Quote from: Deeping_white on March 30, 2021, 10:34:30 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 12:39:48 PM
I still maintain that there is no need to vaccinate the entire population for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate. Governments and the WHO have brainwashed the majority into believing that the vaccine is the answer to everything and there are many many arguments against. Blingo still not happy about taking the jab.

The lockdown is what worked not the vaccine.

It's not just about the recovery rate though and that's not why you vaccinate people (it's also more like 97% because lots of people are suffering long term complications). If you stop the virus' ability to effectively spread by immunising people then you reduce the chance it can mutate and become more lethal, or reduce the chance of people catching it and passing it on so that it circulates at a level that causes problems through the whole country. By all means remain anti-vax but the proof is in the pudding that with so many people vaccinated in the UK, look how the infection and death rate is now significantly below the rest of Europe and tell me that it doesn't work

The lockdown is what has worked not the vaccine as I see it. It is still far too early to tell if the vaccine is working or not. In Spain cases are on the rise again and they are talking about a fourth wave and these waves will continue until we reach herd immunity. I read the other day that a strain of the common cold is quite possibly the most effective way to kill covid. Who do you trust or believe nowadays?????

Im not anti anything but I like to be sure that what I am putting into my body is the right thing and not something that Dr's and Governments (who have not had enough time to prove/disprove or see the full effects that the vaccines can produce) decide that everyone should take.

Wearing masks will never do anything until EVERYONE complies and they wont, why? A lot of lower income families simply cannot afford to be changing masks 3 or 4 times per day, social gatherings where people couldn't care less, will continue the spread and as far as I know, a virus is supremely difficult to stop as it can neither be seen nor heard. I don't think that it's wrong if you want to take the vaccine, I just don't get the over reaction from Governments and the WHO who are more interested in their own self importance than anything else. The WHO have a mountain to answer for in this and it could have virtually been stopped at source but they did NOTHING. Now they do nothing other than try to justify their existence by stressing the dangers of the virus. Don't think I don't understand as this took my aunty in three days in a care home, but lets be honest it (like most hunters or viruses, flu included), take out the weak and the aged and that is virtually what has happened here IMHO. I wish you all well and of course if you think it is the right thing for you then you should do it. I will still sit and wait. Blin .......jib jabbing ........go.

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 03:58:42 PM
I have been affected so I know. However, how many under 50s have died? Has the compulsory wearing of masks worked? All I see is governments controlling people's lives and airlines controlling whether or not you can fly. Who has the right to take people's freedom away in this day and age? Watch how, as time goes by the governments report improvements in the pandemic as economies break down to unsustainable levels. Personal thoughts are that governments screwed up big time and don't know which way to turn now to get out of it. It exists, it's a serious strain of flu but there have been worse and we have survived. Taking the vaccine won't stop you getting it or passing it on. Still too many unanswered questions for blin..... Not at all convinced.... go.

Yeah, they have done so well with denying it in Brazil havent they?

Any better or worse than anywhere else? Will they reach herd immunity before other countries?

Quote from: blingo on March 31, 2021, 08:14:48 PM
Any better or worse than anywhere else? Will they reach herd immunity before other countries?

Believe they thought they had first time round,when their new variant came back to bite then on their arse.

Bling from the very word go you have been against the vaccine. At every turn you have been proven wrong. The vaccine is probably the only way out of this mess. Whether you have it or not is your choice although I suspect that you will eventually. I believe your theories are very misguided and only silly people will share your view

I had my first injection (Astrazeneca) a few weeks ago with the second booked for early June.  Everything we do or don't do carries a risk of some kind, but to me the risk of serious illness or death from Covid (albeit very slight) is greater than the almost negligible risk of an immediate or future complication caused by the Astrazeneca vaccine.

I can understand the "Blingo" viewpoint in terms of him assessing the relative risks differently and making his decision accordingly, even if I reach a different conclusion. However, what I can't accept is Blingo questioning whether the vaccines are effective. That flies in the face of a mountain of evidence from around the world that all the vaccines are effective in terms of making the recipient of the vaccine less likely to catch Covid 19, and reducing the likelihood of serious illness or death if he/she does catch it.  This is in addition to reducing transmission among the population.  Of course no vaccine offers 100% protection, but all the research and real world data shows beyond reasonable doubt that they are extremely effective. I can (whilst disagreeing with it) understand a decision not to get vaccinated because of fear of possible long term effects, but to suggest vaccines are ineffective in terms of countering Covid 19 is just plain stupid, and ignores all the evidence.

Quote from: Plodder on April 01, 2021, 10:11:08 PM
I had my first injection (Astrazeneca) a few weeks ago with the second booked for early June.  Everything we do or don't do carries a risk of some kind, but to me the risk of serious illness or death from Covid (albeit very slight) is greater than the almost negligible risk of an immediate or future complication caused by the Astrazeneca vaccine.

I can understand the "Blingo" viewpoint in terms of him assessing the relative risks differently and making his decision accordingly, even if I reach a different conclusion. However, what I can't accept is Blingo questioning whether the vaccines are effective. That flies in the face of a mountain of evidence from around the world that all the vaccines are effective in terms of making the recipient of the vaccine less likely to catch Covid 19, and reducing the likelihood of serious illness or death if he/she does catch it.  This is in addition to reducing transmission among the population.  Of course no vaccine offers 100% protection, but all the research and real world data shows beyond reasonable doubt that they are extremely effective. I can (whilst disagreeing with it) understand a decision not to get vaccinated because of fear of possible long term effects, but to suggest vaccines are ineffective in terms of countering Covid 19 is just plain stupid, and ignores all the evidence.

Well said

A different view of things doesn't make someone stupid. I respect your choices, you should do the same.

Quote from: blingo on April 01, 2021, 11:09:21 PM
A different view of things doesn't make someone stupid Andy. I respect your choices, you should do the same.

Where do you think we would be Blingo  if everyone decided to do what you will not?

Adherence to the test, trace and isolate system in the UK:  Results from 37 nationally representative surveys. (BMJ Open Access)

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n608

This study perhaps demonstrates where (and why) the greatest transmissions of Covid-19 occur.  As this local discussion indicates it'll be interesting to see how vaccination alters our behaviours the next time we cough, sneeze, run a temperature and/or lose our sense of smell and no doubt there will be further research studies on this very topic.   I do hope that common sense wins out in the end and we see an end to the blame culture.       

Quote from: blingo on April 01, 2021, 11:09:21 PM
A different view of things doesn't make someone stupid Andy. I respect your choices, you should do the same.

Very true.  I happen to disagree with you about the vaccine Blingo but we still live in a relatively free society so wouldn't dream of criticising you for your belief.  I am curious about one thing though - you said earlier that you are not happy about having a jab - does that mean you actually have already declined, or will, decline a vaccination?

Quote from: mrmicawbers on April 02, 2021, 11:34:10 AM

Quote from: blingo on April 01, 2021, 11:09:21 PM
A different view of things doesn't make someone stupid Andy. I respect your choices, you should do the same.

Where do you think we would be Blingo  if everyone decided to do what you will not?

At no point anywhere have I even suggested that you should or should not take the vaccine Mr Mic. I do however have the right to express my point of view. Whether you agree with it or not, does not make me stupid does it?

I have declined it so far Mr Southcoast, and i'm going to be 65 in July  and I am insulin dependant. It is my right and I have (until now) still got my freedom of speech. I have no doubt though that eventually if I want to travel, that I will have to take it. If it is working then protect the vulnerable and let the rest live normal lives. What percentage of under 60s have died from the virus? The latest in Spain now is that you have to wear a mask on the beach. That to me seems ridiculous. But that is MY opinion. The actions of governments will kill more people and put more people into poverty that covid will

Quote from: blingo on April 02, 2021, 12:24:15 PM
I have declined it so far Mr Southcoast, and i'm going to be 65 in July  and I am insulin dependant. It is my right and I have (until now) still got my freedom of speach. I have no doubt though that eventually if I want to travel, that I will have to take it. If it is working then protect the vulnerable and let the rest live normal lives. What percentage of under 60s have died from the virus? The latest in Spain now is that you have to wear a mask on the beach. That to me seems ridiculous. But that is MY opinion. The actions of governments will kill more people and put more people into poverty that covid will

Plenty of under 60's have died sadly (when numbers get as big as they from this pandemic I'm not sure percentages mean quite as much), but that's not all is it? The effects of under 69's getting Covid include;  the debilitating effects of long Covid amongst under 60's, the impact on the economy of working age Covid sufferers taking time off sick, the cost to the state of medical treatment etc.

Quote from: blingo on April 01, 2021, 11:09:21 PM
A different view of things doesn't make someone stupid. I respect your choices, you should do the same.

If that was in response to my comment, I was not calling you as a person stupid. I share some of your concerns about the possibility that some actions taken by governments intended to counter Covid 19 may cause greater damage to people and society than Covid 19 can or could. I can understand the thinking behind a decision not to be vaccinated out of concern for possible side effects some time in the future, even if I arrive at a different decision.  But to question also (as you did) the effectiveness of the vaccines is stupid, as it is contrary to the volume of research, clinical trials and real world data which prove beyond question that vaccines work in terms of their intended purpose in combatting Covid 19.  The possible long term risks of vaccination is a separate question.  So it is fine to respect different choices about getting vaccinated, but stating that "it is still far too early to tell if the vaccine is working" is not about different choices - it is quite simply an incorrect, unfounded and misleading statement.  The vaccines used in the UK undeniably work.

I understand your pov Mr Plodder, but am not entirely convinced it is solely the vaccine. MOST people recover from covid anyway. It was like a mild cold with my daughter in law 27 but killed my aunty in three days 91.  What does not convinced me is that they are vaccinating entire populations for something that in excess of 97% of people infected recover from it, so should we look for herd immunity or inject with something that we can not be sure is 100% safe? J & J have just recalled a massive amount of doses, what if they had got through and had been used? Would people have had side effects or been lulled into a false sense of security believing that they had had a vaccine that worked? All in my view and everyone should do what they think is right.

Quote from: blingo on April 02, 2021, 12:18:59 PM

Quote from: mrmicawbers on April 02, 2021, 11:34:10 AM

Quote from: blingo on April 01, 2021, 11:09:21 PM
A different view of things doesn't make someone stupid Andy. I respect your choices, you should do the same.

Where do you think we would be Blingo  if everyone decided to do what you will not?

At no point anywhere have I even suggested that you should or should not take the vaccine Mr Mic. I do however have the right to express my point of view. Whether you agree with it or not, does not make me stupid does it?

I have never said your stupid Blingo.I was asking you were would we be if nobody took the vaccine?



Mod: Just fixing Quotes to make it read right

Quote from: blingo on April 02, 2021, 12:24:15 PM
I have declined it so far Mr Southcoast, and i'm going to be 65 in July  and I am insulin dependant. It is my right and I have (until now) still got my freedom of speech. I have no doubt though that eventually if I want to travel, that I will have to take it. If it is working then protect the vulnerable and let the rest live normal lives. What percentage of under 60s have died from the virus? The latest in Spain now is that you have to wear a mask on the beach. That to me seems ridiculous. But that is MY opinion. The actions of governments will kill more people and put more people into poverty that covid will

Thanks. Understood. The 'vulnerable ' is an interesting definition imposed, perhaps understandably by statistician, actuaries et al. I'm 70  fit as a flea,  and dont consider myself vulnerable in any sense. My sister, 6 years younger, unfit, obese, died of covid last autumn. Our separate life choices led us each to where we are/were.  That's freedom.

I understand that this is a sensitive subject to most people, but can I ask that members respect each others opinions please? Using words like stupid or silly, or such terms, with an obvious inference towards another members' viewpoint should be avoided if at all possible, as people can become defensive in openly expressing their own viewpoint to avoid such labelling. We can all disagree with each other without resorting to that.

Quote from: mrmicawbers on April 02, 2021, 02:36:53 PM

Quote from: blingo on April 02, 2021, 12:18:59 PM

Quote from: mrmicawbers on April 02, 2021, 11:34:10 AM

Quote from: blingo on April 01, 2021, 11:09:21 PM
A different view of things doesn't make someone stupid Andy. I respect your choices, you should do the same.

Where do you think we would be Blingo  if everyone decided to do what you will not?

At no point anywhere have I even suggested that you should or should not take the vaccine Mr Mic. I do however have the right to express my point of view. Whether you agree with it or not, does not make me stupid does it?

I have never said your stupid Blingo.I was asking you were would we be if nobody took the vaccine?



Mod: Just fixing Quotes to make it read right

Cheers

I don't think that anyone is upset on here, just a few views posted. Good for the blood pressure Mr Logical lol

Quote from: blingo on April 02, 2021, 12:24:15 PM
I have declined it so far Mr Southcoast, and i'm going to be 65 in July  and I am insulin dependant. It is my right and I have (until now) still got my freedom of speech. I have no doubt though that eventually if I want to travel, that I will have to take it. If it is working then protect the vulnerable and let the rest live normal lives. What percentage of under 60s have died from the virus? The latest in Spain now is that you have to wear a mask on the beach. That to me seems ridiculous. But that is MY opinion. The actions of governments will kill more people and put more people into poverty that covid will

Reading this makes me sad, i have seen many people under 65 who have unfortunately had a hard time with Covid. I respect your freedom of speech but this whole government control talk is crazy. I wish you luck in avoiding the virus and that your freedom of speech protects you

Quote from: Porthogs FC on March 30, 2021, 01:28:49 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 12:39:48 PM
I still maintain that there is no need to vaccinate the entire population for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate. Governments and the WHO have brainwashed the majority into believing that the vaccine is the answer to everything and there are many many arguments against. Blingo still not happy about taking the jab.

to each their own. I see it like the flu shot, which most of us have received. Additionally, not being vaccinated against the upcoming strain changes is what I wouldn't be excited about. So I will get the poke.

My philiosy is , i will take the jab when i am offered it. I would rather take it than take the risk of complaining in heaven on how life on earth sucked because government control made me not want to protect my life

Quote from: Sammyffc on April 02, 2021, 07:02:27 PM

Quote from: Porthogs FC on March 30, 2021, 01:28:49 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 12:39:48 PM
I still maintain that there is no need to vaccinate the entire population for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate. Governments and the WHO have brainwashed the majority into believing that the vaccine is the answer to everything and there are many many arguments against. Blingo still not happy about taking the jab.

to each their own. I see it like the flu shot, which most of us have received. Additionally, not being vaccinated against the upcoming strain changes is what I wouldn't be excited about. So I will get the poke.

My philiosy is , i will take the jab when i am offered it. I would rather take it than take the risk of complaining in heaven on how life on earth sucked because government control made me not want to protect my life

If you believe in heaven and hell that is lol.

Quote from: blingo on April 02, 2021, 01:54:46 PM
I understand your pov Mr Plodder, but am not entirely convinced it is solely the vaccine. MOST people recover from covid anyway. It was like a mild cold with my daughter in law 27 but killed my aunty in three days 91.  What does not convinced me is that they are vaccinating entire populations for something that in excess of 97% of people infected recover from it, so should we look for herd immunity or inject with something that we can not be sure is 100% safe? J & J have just recalled a massive amount of doses, what if they had got through and had been used? Would people have had side effects or been lulled into a false sense of security believing that they had had a vaccine that worked? All in my view and everyone should do what they think is right.

Yeah, they have done so well with denying it in Brazil havent they?

Quote from: blingo on April 02, 2021, 07:15:04 PM

Quote from: Sammyffc on April 02, 2021, 07:02:27 PM

Quote from: Porthogs FC on March 30, 2021, 01:28:49 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 12:39:48 PM
I still maintain that there is no need to vaccinate the entire population for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate. Governments and the WHO have brainwashed the majority into believing that the vaccine is the answer to everything and there are many many arguments against. Blingo still not happy about taking the jab.

to each their own. I see it like the flu shot, which most of us have received. Additionally, not being vaccinated against the upcoming strain changes is what I wouldn't be excited about. So I will get the poke.

My philiosy is , i will take the jab when i am offered it. I would rather take it than take the risk of complaining in heaven on how life on earth sucked because government control made me not want to protect my life

If you believe in heaven and hell that is lol.

HAHA that is true !!! just be safe x

Quote from: sunburywhite on April 02, 2021, 07:18:13 PM

Quote from: blingo on April 02, 2021, 01:54:46 PM
I understand your pov Mr Plodder, but am not entirely convinced it is solely the vaccine. MOST people recover from covid anyway. It was like a mild cold with my daughter in law 27 but killed my aunty in three days 91.  What does not convinced me is that they are vaccinating entire populations for something that in excess of 97% of people infected recover from it, so should we look for herd immunity or inject with something that we can not be sure is 100% safe? J & J have just recalled a massive amount of doses, what if they had got through and had been used? Would people have had side effects or been lulled into a false sense of security believing that they had had a vaccine that worked? All in my view and everyone should do what they think is right.

Yeah, they have done so well with denying it in Brazil havent they?

I have many friends in Brazil and they are all literally scared for their lives. It has ravaged the country to devastating effect

Quote from: blingo on April 02, 2021, 07:15:04 PM

Quote from: Sammyffc on April 02, 2021, 07:02:27 PM

Quote from: Porthogs FC on March 30, 2021, 01:28:49 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 12:39:48 PM
I still maintain that there is no need to vaccinate the entire population for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate. Governments and the WHO have brainwashed the majority into believing that the vaccine is the answer to everything and there are many many arguments against. Blingo still not happy about taking the jab.

to each their own. I see it like the flu shot, which most of us have received. Additionally, not being vaccinated against the upcoming strain changes is what I wouldn't be excited about. So I will get the poke.

My philiosy is , i will take the jab when i am offered it. I would rather take it than take the risk of complaining in heaven on how life on earth sucked because government control made me not want to protect my life

If you believe in heaven and hell that is lol.

You talk about freedom of speech and then laugh when someone says they believe in heaven.

Quote from: JoelH5 on April 02, 2021, 11:58:48 PM

Quote from: blingo on April 02, 2021, 07:15:04 PM

Quote from: Sammyffc on April 02, 2021, 07:02:27 PM

Quote from: Porthogs FC on March 30, 2021, 01:28:49 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 12:39:48 PM
I still maintain that there is no need to vaccinate the entire population for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate. Governments and the WHO have brainwashed the majority into believing that the vaccine is the answer to everything and there are many many arguments against. Blingo still not happy about taking the jab.

to each their own. I see it like the flu shot, which most of us have received. Additionally, not being vaccinated against the upcoming strain changes is what I wouldn't be excited about. So I will get the poke.

My philiosy is , i will take the jab when i am offered it. I would rather take it than take the risk of complaining in heaven on how life on earth sucked because government control made me not want to protect my life

If you believe in heaven and hell that is lol.

You talk about freedom of speech and then laugh when someone says they believe in heaven.

Everyone is free to believe in whatever they like Joel. It wasn't offensive it was a simple statement, some do believe and some don't, it's a personal choice.

Quote from: blingo on April 03, 2021, 09:39:53 AM

Quote from: JoelH5 on April 02, 2021, 11:58:48 PM

Quote from: blingo on April 02, 2021, 07:15:04 PM

Quote from: Sammyffc on April 02, 2021, 07:02:27 PM

Quote from: Porthogs FC on March 30, 2021, 01:28:49 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 12:39:48 PM
I still maintain that there is no need to vaccinate the entire population for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate. Governments and the WHO have brainwashed the majority into believing that the vaccine is the answer to everything and there are many many arguments against. Blingo still not happy about taking the jab.

to each their own. I see it like the flu shot, which most of us have received. Additionally, not being vaccinated against the upcoming strain changes is what I wouldn't be excited about. So I will get the poke.

My philiosy is , i will take the jab when i am offered it. I would rather take it than take the risk of complaining in heaven on how life on earth sucked because government control made me not want to protect my life

If you believe in heaven and hell that is lol.

You talk about freedom of speech and then laugh when someone says they believe in heaven.

Everyone is free to believe in whatever they like Joel. It wasn't offensive it was a simple statement, some do believe and some don't, it's a personal choice.

It was offensive, Blingo, as you laughed at what he believes in. Don't try and backtrack now. Surprising for someone with such strong opinions.

Quote from: JoelH5 on April 03, 2021, 11:25:57 AM

Quote from: blingo on April 03, 2021, 09:39:53 AM

Quote from: JoelH5 on April 02, 2021, 11:58:48 PM

Quote from: blingo on April 02, 2021, 07:15:04 PM

Quote from: Sammyffc on April 02, 2021, 07:02:27 PM

Quote from: Porthogs FC on March 30, 2021, 01:28:49 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 12:39:48 PM
I still maintain that there is no need to vaccinate the entire population for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate. Governments and the WHO have brainwashed the majority into believing that the vaccine is the answer to everything and there are many many arguments against. Blingo still not happy about taking the jab.

to each their own. I see it like the flu shot, which most of us have received. Additionally, not being vaccinated against the upcoming strain changes is what I wouldn't be excited about. So I will get the poke.

My philiosy is , i will take the jab when i am offered it. I would rather take it than take the risk of complaining in heaven on how life on earth sucked because government control made me not want to protect my life

If you believe in heaven and hell that is lol.

You talk about freedom of speech and then laugh when someone says they believe in heaven.

Everyone is free to believe in whatever they like Joel. It wasn't offensive it was a simple statement, some do believe and some don't, it's a personal choice.

It was offensive, Blingo, as you laughed at what he believes in. Don't try and backtrack now. Surprising for someone with such strong opinions.

It was NOT offensive Joel, Sammy laughed at it and it was him who it was directed to. So what exactly is it that has got to you? And I never back track my friend.

Quote from: JoelH5 on April 03, 2021, 11:25:57 AM

Quote from: blingo on April 03, 2021, 09:39:53 AM

Quote from: JoelH5 on April 02, 2021, 11:58:48 PM

Quote from: blingo on April 02, 2021, 07:15:04 PM

Quote from: Sammyffc on April 02, 2021, 07:02:27 PM

Quote from: Porthogs FC on March 30, 2021, 01:28:49 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 12:39:48 PM
I still maintain that there is no need to vaccinate the entire population for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate. Governments and the WHO have brainwashed the majority into believing that the vaccine is the answer to everything and there are many many arguments against. Blingo still not happy about taking the jab.

to each their own. I see it like the flu shot, which most of us have received. Additionally, not being vaccinated against the upcoming strain changes is what I wouldn't be excited about. So I will get the poke.

My philiosy is , i will take the jab when i am offered it. I would rather take it than take the risk of complaining in heaven on how life on earth sucked because government control made me not want to protect my life

If you believe in heaven and hell that is lol.

You talk about freedom of speech and then laugh when someone says they believe in heaven.

Everyone is free to believe in whatever they like Joel. It wasn't offensive it was a simple statement, some do believe and some don't, it's a personal choice.

It was offensive, Blingo, as you laughed at what he believes in. Don't try and backtrack now. Surprising for someone with such strong opinions.

Laughing at ones opinion, or even being critical of it is part and parcel of freedom of speech.....That works both ways though. I also don't believe (and correct me if im wrong) that Blingo mentioned others shouldn't laugh at him for his opinion on vaccines (or belittle) he just said he had a right to that opinion......

Quote from: blingo on April 03, 2021, 11:48:37 AM

Quote from: JoelH5 on April 03, 2021, 11:25:57 AM

Quote from: blingo on April 03, 2021, 09:39:53 AM

Quote from: JoelH5 on April 02, 2021, 11:58:48 PM

Quote from: blingo on April 02, 2021, 07:15:04 PM

Quote from: Sammyffc on April 02, 2021, 07:02:27 PM

Quote from: Porthogs FC on March 30, 2021, 01:28:49 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 12:39:48 PM
I still maintain that there is no need to vaccinate the entire population for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate. Governments and the WHO have brainwashed the majority into believing that the vaccine is the answer to everything and there are many many arguments against. Blingo still not happy about taking the jab.

to each their own. I see it like the flu shot, which most of us have received. Additionally, not being vaccinated against the upcoming strain changes is what I wouldn't be excited about. So I will get the poke.

My philiosy is , i will take the jab when i am offered it. I would rather take it than take the risk of complaining in heaven on how life on earth sucked because government control made me not want to protect my life

If you believe in heaven and hell that is lol.

You talk about freedom of speech and then laugh when someone says they believe in heaven.

Everyone is free to believe in whatever they like Joel. It wasn't offensive it was a simple statement, some do believe and some don't, it's a personal choice.

It was offensive, Blingo, as you laughed at what he believes in. Don't try and backtrack now. Surprising for someone with such strong opinions.

It was NOT offensive Joel, Sammy laughed at it and it was him who it was directed to. So what exactly is it that has got to you? And I never back track my friend.

Just to add here, i wasn't offended i took it as a joke and yeh haha

Firstly let me say I have had both doses of my Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine but that was my choice and is not an indication to anyone that I am pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine.  I believe every medical treatment advocated by a medical professional should be questioned until you, the individual, are satisfied that it is worth a shot (pun intended).  No one should be forced or co-erced by groupthink into anything.  Our freedom is priceless and I am not going to throw it away lightly to suit others on any account.  That applies to many things these days including MSM censorship, human caused climate change advocacy, racism, sexism, genderism, Marxism, Covid-19 policy, or any other matter which instantly divides people.  We should all respect our freedoms and fight for others to have their freedoms too.  We should listen to all points of view before making up our minds about stuff, and be big enough to admit bad judgement when it happens. It's a very great pity in my opinion that not enough of us seem able to think for themselves and, much worse, that our media channels make it harder for people to do that.

The matter of vaccines has good news and bad news.  The good is that it appears the vaccines will not be troubled by variants except for people for whom being vaccinated was not going to be enough anyway.  That is not just applicable to Covid-19 but to any other vaccine that dosedn't work for certain individuals.  The bad news about the vaccines is not something you'll read about in MSM but you may want to look up Tucker Carlson of Fox News fame on the subjecct of post Covid vaccination deaths in the US.  He is not scaremongering but has simply raised the question as to why the authorities have not published the data thus far.  Once again we see evidence of MSM bias and all of us should be scared of that bias - all of us.

   

Quote from: JoelH5 on April 03, 2021, 11:25:57 AM

Quote from: blingo on April 03, 2021, 09:39:53 AM

Quote from: JoelH5 on April 02, 2021, 11:58:48 PM

Quote from: blingo on April 02, 2021, 07:15:04 PM

Quote from: Sammyffc on April 02, 2021, 07:02:27 PM

Quote from: Porthogs FC on March 30, 2021, 01:28:49 PM

Quote from: blingo on March 30, 2021, 12:39:48 PM
I still maintain that there is no need to vaccinate the entire population for a virus with a 99.7% recovery rate. Governments and the WHO have brainwashed the majority into believing that the vaccine is the answer to everything and there are many many arguments against. Blingo still not happy about taking the jab.

to each their own. I see it like the flu shot, which most of us have received. Additionally, not being vaccinated against the upcoming strain changes is what I wouldn't be excited about. So I will get the poke.

My philiosy is , i will take the jab when i am offered it. I would rather take it than take the risk of complaining in heaven on how life on earth sucked because government control made me not want to protect my life

If you believe in heaven and hell that is lol.

You talk about freedom of speech and then laugh when someone says they believe in heaven.

Everyone is free to believe in whatever they like Joel. It wasn't offensive it was a simple statement, some do believe and some don't, it's a personal choice.

It was offensive, Blingo, as you laughed at what he believes in. Don't try and backtrack now. Surprising for someone with such strong opinions.

aaannnd triggered.